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  • I got into an argument on Twitter about this, I believe Kcm2 Sage mode Naruto and Healthy Itachi take this one. Let’s debate

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    • I don't know about that, man. Madara has PS, which I believe the duo don't have an answer for.

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    • Edo Madara? He can spam his suicide technique Tengai Shinsei, and not suffer any consequences.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: I don't know about that, man. Madara has PS, which I believe the duo don't have an answer for.

      Kcm 2 Sage mode Scales high enough to damage PS, not to mention I believe Naruto and Itachi can do a Kurama Susano Cloak, Similar to Sasuke and Narutos. Totsuka blade seals chakra and Itachis Susano would now have legs

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    • Kotoamatsukami gg

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    • Kamp or kg wrote: Kcm 2 Sage mode Scales high enough to damage PS, not to mention I believe Naruto and Itachi can do a Kurama Susano Cloak, Similar to Sasuke and Narutos. Totsuka blade seals chakra and Itachis Susano would now have legs

      The only technique that Naruto's TBSM can do against Madara's PS is a charged-up TBB, which Madara can interupt. The Totsuka Blade has no feat of sealing chakra directly and it is a stretch to say that kit can seal PS, let alone pierce. Madara's PS dwarfs Itachi's legged Susanoo.

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    • i see you forgot to restrict itachis crow kotoamatsukami gg

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    • Madara gets beaten by a crow

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    • I don't think people understand how broken Edo Madara is, in comparison to his 'alive' forms. No other form of him alive can use Tengai Shinsei without killing himself in the process. What are Itachi and Naruto gonna do when Madara spams Tengai Shinsei with absolutely no repercussions?

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    • He never spammed it, you are giving him an ability he has now shown.

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    • 101dividedbyzero wrote: i see you forgot to restrict itachis crow kotoamatsukami gg

      Itachi generally doesn't have access to his special crow

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    • He had access until he put the crow into Naruto. Also he doesn't need the crow to win here. Itachi's intellect and strategic mind are lethal and with KCM2 Naruto as part of his plans Edo Madara will end up sealed with SoT. Edo's have 3 ways of being defeated, you undo the jutsu via the caster, you seal the Edo, or you use YinYang Release TSB's to erase them. Itachi can seal Edo's. He only needs to watch Naruto's back and vice versa, not to mention KCM2 Naruto can obliterate Tengai Shinsei with his TBB, the same one that overpowered 5 other Tailed Beasts TBB's. Madara will last a long time, but in the end he will be sealed.

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      Kamp or kg wrote: Kcm 2 Sage mode Scales high enough to damage PS, not to mention I believe Naruto and Itachi can do a Kurama Susano Cloak, Similar to Sasuke and Narutos. Totsuka blade seals chakra and Itachis Susano would now have legs

      The only technique that Naruto's TBSM can do against Madara's PS is a charged-up TBB, which Madara can interupt. The Totsuka Blade has no feat of sealing chakra directly and it is a stretch to say that kit can seal PS, let alone pierce. Madara's PS dwarfs Itachi's legged Susanoo.

      What does PS mean?

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    • FlatZone wrote: He had access until he put the crow into Naruto. Also he doesn't need the crow to win here. Itachi's intellect and strategic mind are lethal and with KCM2 Naruto as part of his plans Edo Madara will end up sealed with SoT. Edo's have 3 ways of being defeated, you undo the jutsu via the caster, you seal the Edo, or you use YinYang Release TSB's to erase them. Itachi can seal Edo's. He only needs to watch Naruto's back and vice versa, not to mention KCM2 Naruto can obliterate Tengai Shinsei with his TBB, the same one that overpowered 5 other Tailed Beasts TBB's. Madara will last a long time, but in the end he will be sealed.

      The point is that he doesn't use it which makes mentioning it moot. Madara is no fool and has the means of avoiding getting sealed such as Susanoo and wood clones. Madara can simply use Wood Release to keep Naruto busy for a little bit while he easily deals with Itachi. If Madara is pushed into a corner somehow, he can easily bring out PS to wipe the duo off the face of the Earth.

      JasonFan wrote: What does PS mean?

      It stands for Perfect Susanoo, which refers to the Susanoo's final form

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    • He will use it if the situation demands for him to use it. PLus it's in his nature to end a fight as quick as possible

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: He will use it if the situation demands for him to use it. PLus it's in his nature to end a fight as quick as possible

      He never used it prior to being an Edo, so there's no reason for him to use it here when he already has a means to win via the Totsuka Blade.

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    • Then explain how will he win using totsuka.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Then explain how will he win using totsuka.

      Why would I need to explain how he'll win using the Totsuka Blade? I just said that it is an already available way for Itachi to win.

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    • So it the crow, which is more plausible, goodbye.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: So it the crow, which is more plausible, goodbye.

      Oh, something he never used in combat (crow came out because Naruto looked at Itachi's eyes) is more plausible? Ok, Tengai Shinsei spam then

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    • The crow is in Naruto and also including Kotoamatsukami isn't really a fair thing anyway, it's a one shot no matter, not even Edo Tensei can overpower its control and ability. Spamming Tengai Shinsei doesn't seem like something Madara can do anyway as after the first 2 were stopped he would have used it again but he didn't.

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    • I think KCM Sage Naruto and Itachi win. Madara isn't going to break Tsukuyomi as fast as people like to think he'd break it. Itachi isn't an amateur with his Genjutsu prowess. Madara casually gets sealed by the T-Blade while immobile under Itachi's Genjutsu.

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    • Nobody has instantly broken Tsukuyomi ever, that's a feat that never existed and to randomly give it to Madara "because he's Madara" is bs speculation and fanboyism. Itachi lands Tsukuyomi ONCE and it's over because he will then seal Madara before Madara can break it.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Spamming Tengai Shinsei doesn't seem like something Madara can do anyway as after the first 2 were stopped he would have used it again but he didn't.

      There are no indications that 2 meteors are his limit. The second meteor effectively wiped out a significant portion of the division. Not to mention, he wanted to try out Wood Release. But, the main point is that Madara wouldn't do it just like how Itachi wouldn't bring out his special crow,

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    • FlatZone wrote: Nobody has instantly broken Tsukuyomi ever, that's a feat that never existed and to randomly give it to Madara "because he's Madara" is bs speculation and fanboyism. Itachi lands Tsukuyomi ONCE and it's over because he will then seal Madara before Madara can break it.

      ? I'm sorry, isn't it impossible not to break Tsukuyomi almost instantly? Tsukuyomi itself lasts for like a second, so if one breaks it, it has to be within that second. So yeah, there's a precedent. Would Madara be able to? That's a matter of debate, but if he breaks it, he will break it nigh instantly because that's how the jutsu works. It only lasts like a second.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Oh, something he never used in combat (crow came out because Naruto looked at Itachi's eyes) is more plausible? Ok, Tengai Shinsei spam then

      His opponents whilst alive were obviously largely manageable, why would he need to use Kotoamatsukami against Orochimaru, Naruto, Kakashi, Kisame, Deidara when base genjutsu/tsukuyomi was enough? Sure go ahead and add to Madara something he's never done, but it's doesn't matter cuz he'll be too dead to do it anyways

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Sure go ahead and add to Madara something he's never done, but it's doesn't matter cuz he'll be too dead to do it anyways

      The absolute irony of your statement is hilarious. Madara literally stomps on Itachi while he deals with Naruto with Wood Release and Rinnegan techniques.

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    • Itachi chills in kurama avatar while the crow one shots Madara the thief.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Itachi chills in kurama avatar while the crow one shots Madara the thief.

      Wood Dragon absorbs Tailed Beast Mode and Madara stomps.

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    • Naruto creates a clone and blitzes the dragons head off as he did in the manga and the crow solos.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Naruto creates a clone and blitzes the dragons head off as he did in the manga and the crow solos.

      And what will he do against the gargantuan samurai entity that appears before him? The crow as much of a non-factor as Madara spamming Tengai Shinsei. Saying otherwise is absolutely disingenuous.

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    • You do know koto is nigh instantaneous right lol, unlike everything in madara's arsenal.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: You do know koto is nigh instantaneous right lol, unlike everything in madara's arsenal.

      And you do know that Koto is not part of Itachi's usual arsenal and has only been used in a very specual circumstance, right? I'm not sure how you're not getting this.

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    • FlatZone wrote: The crow is in Naruto and also including Kotoamatsukami isn't really a fair thing anyway, it's a one shot no matter, not even Edo Tensei can overpower its control and ability. Spamming Tengai Shinsei doesn't seem like something Madara can do anyway as after the first 2 were stopped he would have used it again but he didn't.

      It's clearly not because Madara couldn't use it again, the whole time he was fooling around, testing his abilities. Heck, he wouldn't even need to spam it, the two that he summoned against the 4th Division is more than enough.

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    • Again that's speculation. He didn't when if he could then he would have. So Tengai Shinsei spamming is off the table here.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: And you do know that Koto is not part of Itachi's usual arsenal and has only been used in a very special circumstance, right? I'm not sure how you're not getting this.

      This is a special circumstance. Why are you afraid of Koto lmao.

      • Black zetsu >>>madara
      • Crow >>>Madara
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    • @Kamp or kg

      Healthy Itachi meaning part 1 Itachi? If so, the crow with Koto is then unusable. Although, even if koto was usable Itachi would have to reprogram it first, and either way that would take time.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Again that's speculation. He didn't when if he could then he would have. So Tengai Shinsei spamming is off the table here.

      Why would he have made more meteors when he reformed from the second meteor? There was no point, he decimated nearly everyone. And as others have said, he was goofing around just testing what he could do with his abilities.

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    • He made the two at the same time, one was later and came after the other on purpose. He didn't spam them one after the other. There is nothing indicating he can and to add this as a feat for him is speculation alone.

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      FlatZone wrote: He had access until he put the crow into Naruto. Also he doesn't need the crow to win here. Itachi's intellect and strategic mind are lethal and with KCM2 Naruto as part of his plans Edo Madara will end up sealed with SoT. Edo's have 3 ways of being defeated, you undo the jutsu via the caster, you seal the Edo, or you use YinYang Release TSB's to erase them. Itachi can seal Edo's. He only needs to watch Naruto's back and vice versa, not to mention KCM2 Naruto can obliterate Tengai Shinsei with his TBB, the same one that overpowered 5 other Tailed Beasts TBB's. Madara will last a long time, but in the end he will be sealed.

      The point is that he doesn't use it which makes mentioning it moot. Madara is no fool and has the means of avoiding getting sealed such as Susanoo and wood clones. Madara can simply use Wood Release to keep Naruto busy for a little bit while he easily deals with Itachi. If Madara is pushed into a corner somehow, he can easily bring out PS to wipe the duo off the face of the Earth.

      JasonFan wrote: What does PS mean?

      It stands for Perfect Susanoo, which refers to the Susanoo's final form

      Oh, thanks.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He made the two at the same time, one was later and came after the other on purpose. He didn't spam them one after the other. There is nothing indicating he can and to add this as a feat for him is speculation alone.

      Well, the fact that he completely and utterly casually called down a second one when they managed to stop the first and showed no signs of strain from doing so? That's a pretty solid indicator that it's not a big deal for him since he's an Edo and doesn't have to worry about his chakra levels or the actual jutsu obliterating himself.

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    • Edo chakra levels are not infinite, they will just refill infinitely and going by whats shown from other Edo Tensei shown in 4th War the chakra refill isn't instantaneous or super fast, its just faster than when they were alive, and also the chakra levels of an Edo aren't as large as what their living selves had anyway, Edo's are weaker overall than their living counterparts. The almost unlimited regenerating and the unlimited chakra refill are what make Edo's a problem for those who have no sealing jutsu or YinYangRelease using TSB's.

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    • Even if he couldn't bring a 1000 of them in one go, he could still make an insane amount of meteors appear if he wanted to. As Squinty said, no strain in bringing both meteors is pretty good at indicating his ability to summon more. The bigger question is, what would Naruto or Itachi do to one of these things, let alone more.

      IMO, Madara auto-wins because of this. A better versus would be Alive Madara, since he wouldn't be able to use this tech without killing himself too.

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    • Madara auto loses because of Kotoamatsukami*

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: This is a special circumstance. Why are you afraid of Koto lmao.

      • Black zetsu >>>madara
      • Crow >>>Madara

      Said special circumstance is Koto being programmed to activate when the crow (or vessel of the crow) looks at Itachi's eyes after much time since Itachi's death. This hypothetical fight is by no means a special circumstance and involves a hypothetical live Itachi who is not suffering from his illness. While alive, Itachi has never utilized his special crow, which would make him using it here OOC. How are you not getting this? Then, you dare poke fun at me for mentioning something Madara has never done (Tengai Shinsei spam) despite doing the exact same thing for Itachi. Koto is not a factor here, whether you like it or not.

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    • Yeah, Itachi had to activate Koto through a crow that was inside Naruto. Unless he has the eye in his head, I think its kinda stretching it to claim that it can be used to the same extent that it is used in a human being. It was specifically programmed to work on the eyes of Itachi Uchiha, so that it would work on Sasuke, so I don't think mid-battle the crow can change the type of eyes it locks onto: it wouldn't be able to affect Madara Uchiha's eyes. His main intention wasn't even to interact with Koto, it was to let it interact with Sasuke to bring him back to the Leaf.

      @Jason

      Regardless, for argument's sake let's say it is part of Itachi's arsenal, I think Madara would break out of it. Koto doesn't require eye contact which makes it broken af, but Koto gets cancelled if the target realises that they are caught inside a genjutsu. It's how Mifune broke out of it. Madara should have no problem sensing that Itachi is using an ocular genjutsu by seeing the build-up of chakra in his eyeball, and thus the genjutsu would be broken. If a transplanted single Byakugan can detect Koto, then an EMS or Rinnegan can too.

      Also, even if you still think that Koto would work, it depends on what you think is faster: Madara performing 3 handseals, or Itachi activating the crow which would then trigger Koto on Madara.

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    • @Ultima..You do know it can be reprogrammed right lmao. And for all we know the crow was programmed a few before it got stuck into Naruto, healthy Itachi is early days Itachi, which means a nonprogrammed Kotoamatsukami.....Madara get's one shotted whether you like it or not.


      Halcyonite wrote: Yeah, Itachi had to activate Koto through a crow that was inside Naruto. Unless he has the eye in his head,

      Part 2 Itachi.....


      Regardless, for argument's sake let's say it is part of Itachi's arsenal, I think Madara would break out of it. Koto doesn't require eye contact which makes it broken af, but Koto gets cancelled if the target realises that they are caught inside a genjutsu. It's how Mifune broke out of it.

      Well let's keep it that way as something you think will happen. Mifune broke out because Danzo stopped controlling him.

      Madara should have no problem sensing that Itachi is using an ocular genjutsu by seeing the build-up of chakra in his eyeball, and thus the genjutsu would be broken. If a transplanted single Byakugan can detect Koto, then an EMS or Rinnegan can too.

      Ao only knew it was shisui's eye due to his confrontation with shisui, in other words he had experience.

      Also, even if you still think that Koto would work, it depends on what you think is faster: Madara performing 3 handseals, or Itachi activating the crow which would then trigger Koto on Madara.

      Don't forget the time the boulder takes to land on the ground. Like someone pointed out, NAruto can spam bijju dama and destroy it.

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    • @Jason

      Ao still deduced that an ocular genjutsu was being used. That's all the information that Madara would need.

      It would take a lot of Bijuu-dama to blow the TS to pieces, given how enormous it was. And that's only one TS, there would be manyyyy more. And while Naruto is busy, Madara can bumrush Itachi with his Susanoo clones. Lol, I just think its unrealistic that Itachi and Naruto would come out on top against a force as strong as Madara, with infinite regeneration and chakra.

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    • After it's casted his actions will be controlled, he's done lmao.

      Madara would be too busy being controlled, or even better he can be controlled into sending the meteors away saving Naruto the trouble.

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    • Who's to say that Madara won't just create 50 wood clones? You may not need eye contact, but you need to LOOK at the person you want to genjutsu with Koto at least. Itachi or Naruto can't tell the difference between them, and Koto can only be used once. And by the time they (somehow) realise who the real Madara is, they have a meteor on top of their heads.

      We don't know if Madara can even send the meteors away once they are summoned. It is a suicide technique for a reason.

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    • @Halcyonite

      Koto won't be usable as Itachi first needs to reprogram it. And apparently it's stored in Naruto? Don't even know if OP allows the crow.

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    • Now Madara can make more than 25 Wood clones?? Ya'll love giving speculative abilities to those you want to win.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: @Ultima..You do know it can be reprogrammed right lmao. And for all we know the crow was programmed a few before it got stuck into Naruto, healthy Itachi is early days Itachi, which means a nonprogrammed Kotoamatsukami.....Madara get's one shotted whether you like it or not.

      Too bad he has never used it while alive, therfore it's a non-factor here

      FlatZone wrote: Now Madara can make more than 5-6 Wood clones?? Ya'll love giving speculative abilities to those you want to win.

      You do realize that Madara made 25 wood clones in his "fight" against the 5 Kage who each used the legged Susanoo, right? It seems that you, Jason, and Senjutsu tend to ignore feats and abilities of those you want to lose while giving OOC options to those you want to win.

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    • @Halcyonite...Naruto's clone blitzes them to oblivion...you keep changing tactic lmao.

      @UltimaDude...you're back to that huh? lmao

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    • @FlatZone How on earth is that speculative? Edo Tensei zombies have unlimited chakra, and compared to Madara's chakra supply, creating 50 wood clones is nothing to him. The guy literally changed the entire environment with his Deep Forest Emergence like it was nothing, and even taunted the 5 Kage by asking them whether they would like his clones to use Susanoo lmao.

      @Jason I don't remember Naruto gaining the ability to phase through Perfect Susanoo... let alone 50 Susanoos. Naruto has enough firepower to eventually break through the Susanoos, but he won't be quick enough before each Madara clone retaliates with a Susanoo sword swing or a Rinnegan power.

      "You keep changing tactic" LOL, do you think Madara is gonna use one technique at a time if he is going all out? Clones + Tengai Shinsei guarantees Madara the win lmao, whilst Itachi and Naruto are busy fighting off the Wood Clone Susanoos, they have a dozen meteors to deal with too. Honestly, I think you guys are just ignorant to the facts. Itachi using Koto requires eye contact on the real Madara and also will take time to activate considering it has to go through the crow first >>> This will take too long, all Madara needs to do is a single handseal to create his Wood Clones, and then 3 handseals to bring a horde of meteors down on them.

      The Madara you guys have seen in battle was taking the piss. A Madara who is bloodlusted would honestly decimate Naruto and Itachi.

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    • @Halcyonite: Who said anything about phasing, who said anything about him phasing through a perfect susanoo. Naruto kicked away 6 full charged bijju dama miles away, i think his clones can fodderize those clones.You don't think he'll be quick enough? ok lmao.

      Also the strategy you're using is obviously bullshit, and something madara won't do, summon meteors then use clones? what's the purpose of the other if one succeeds? meteors will smash the clones and Madara himself, also leaving Madara vulnerable to be sealed providing the duo survives. Koto one shots, and no it doesn't take as much time as you think, the crow appears and gg. By that time, Madara creates susanoo [crow is being summoned] susanoo begins to weave signs [oops Madara already gets onshotted, too slow.]

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    • @UltimaDude

      Do you think Madara would make wood clones (25?) right off the bat? How do you think the fight would proceed?

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    • @Ultima. I just think he's right about Mifune and Ao. When Danzo got caught he stopped controlling Mifune. Ao felt something was up, snooped out Danzo and recognized the colour of Shisui's eye and deduced that he was using Shisui's Genjutsu on Mifune.

      I've already indicated how I see Itachi and Naruto winning. I don't really know about the Kotoamatsukami thing. All I can really hint about that is that Itachi's mention and explanation of it, to Bee and Naruto, of why he couldn't use it on Sasuke was confusing. Shisui never got to use the Genjutsu on Fugaku as he planned to do (We know that much). So that means all this time it's usability was in tact. So idk how he came out and said he couldn't use it at that point on Sasuke. Unless I'm mis-analyzing something or just missing something.

      But wait checking the description again. The Itachi mentioned does have the crow. Only thing I question about it, is what I am puzzled about above^.

      Koto in fact does actually one shot though. That really isn't deniable

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: ...you're back to that huh? lmao

      I never strayed from this point. Do you not read my posts before you reply to them? Now, can you prove that Itachi would utilize his special crow in this fight despite never doing so while alive and only being summoned due to a trigger he placed way before his death?

      Ninja Of War wrote: Do you think Madara would make wood clones (25?) right off the bat? How do you think the fight would proceed?

      I actually don't think that Madara would actually use as many wood clones as he did in the fight against Kages. If anything, he'll probably make them if Naruto makes a multitude of shadow clones (though, he hasn't made more than 3 while in the mode).

      The way I see this go down is Madara focusing more on Naruto. If Madara ends up taking too much time dealing with Naruto, he can make a wood clone to deal with Itachi. Madara has the means to restrict Kurama Sage Mode via Wood Dragon and Rinnegan rods. The clone deals with Itachi rather easily with superior ninjutsu and a superior Susanoo that can be maintained longer than Itachi can maintain his. If push comes to shove, then Madara simply ends it with PS.

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    • @Jason

      Yes, that’s what I like to see, my comments being taken out of context. Naruto is incredibly fast, we all know that, but I could be Usain Bolt running at a brick wall, but I ain’t gonna break it holding a pebble, am I. Naruto’s attacks are strong af, and they would break through Madara’s Susanoo eventually, but not fast enough before Madara has already cast his techniques. Naruto will reach Madara’s Susanoo in a second, sure, but he ain’t breaking it in a second, last time I checked, Bijuu dama don’t fire instantaneously, and Naruto’s large Rasengan got bopped by Madara’s Susanoo against the 4th Division.

      Because you can’t refute my argument, you say that it’s something “Madara won’t do”, even though we’ve seen him do both, in the same fight. Ok.

      “Meteor will smash the clones and Madara himself”........... so Itachi and Naruto are immune to this all of a sudden? What part of “suicide technique” do you not understand? The technique will take EVERYONE out, and Madara would eventually reform because he is an Edo. And you can’t seal someone who has turned into Edo dust, and when you have been crushed by meteors/busy fighting an army of Susanoo.

      Last time I checked, it took a dozen panels for Nagato to sense the chakra build-up in Itachi’s eyeball, for Itachi to use his Mangekyo, for the crow to slowly crawl out of Naruto’s mouth, and for Koto to be finally cast. >>> It took one panel for Madara to create his clones and another two for him to summon the meteors. By then, it doesn’t matter if Madara is under Koto or not, as the oncoming deaths of Naruto and Itachi are inevitable at that point. They can’t do crap about the incoming Tengai Shinseis. It would bust through Itachi’s Susanoo like butter, and Naruto would not be able to destroy one with Bijuu Dama, let alone more. If anything, Naruto firing off his Bijuu Dama would only make things worse, as it would cause large chunks of rock to break apart and coming crashing down on them.


      EDIT: Also, I disagree that it was Danzo stopping Kotoamatsukami that let Mifune out of the genjutsu. With that logic, you have contradicted yourselves. You imply that Koto is a genjutsu that needs to be continuously maintained in order for it to work, yet the crow took only a single look at Itachi for its effects to be placed on him. After the crow stopped the technique, Itachi even burned the crow afterwards with Amaterasu and he still remained under its effect. Hence, I think it is the realisation of being under genjutsu that allowed Mifune to break out of Koto, as the occurrence of the Koto genjutsu even transcended the existence of the eyeball that cast it.

      Thus, I don’t have much trouble believing that Madara should be able to break free when he looks at the chakra build-up in Itachi’s eyeball and the build-up in the eye of the crow, not to mention the crow emerging out of nowhere in the first place.

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    • @Hal. It's really true that Danzo stopped Koto. Mifune even ventured to ask Ao if Danzo's "jutsu was still in effect." Ao replied saying, "No, right now the flow in his chakra network is quiet, the jutsu's undone."

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    • @Senjutsu. That still doesn’t prove that Koto is a technique that Danzo needs to maintain. Koto is not a continuous genjutsu where the caster has to maintain it indefinitely. Danzo had nothing to “stop”, the genjutsu was already cast, and it wore off once Mifune realised (from Ao’s outburst).

      Imagine if you did have to maintain it; that would completely ruin the brokenness of the technique, since Itachi’s chakra supply would swiftly deplete when he has to maintain this tech, before too long, and the technique wouldn’t even last once the target is out of sight.


      Senjutsu Sage wrote: @Hal. It's really true that Danzo stopped Koto. Mifune even ventured to ask Ao if Danzo's "jutsu was still in effect." Ao replied saying, "No, right now the flow in his chakra network is quiet, the jutsu's undone."


      Now, in regards to your quote, Ao described his chakra network, and Shisui’s eye in particular. Naturally, the network would have become quiet anyways once Danzo had executed the technique. Do you think Shisui’s eye would have remained active forever when it was cast on Itachi Uchiha? Because it clearly didn’t.

      Mifune’s clear change of tone indicates his realisation, which happened right after Ao declared that Danzo was using genjutsu. That’s what made Mifune realise.


      >>> To sum up, the whole premise of Kotoamatsukami is for the caster to give an idea of theirs to a specific target, that the target thinks is their own original idea. Even through logical deduction, once the target realises that the idea is not their own, the genjutsu is broken. That’s why Koto is considered a “subtle” genjutsu. Mifune was saying what Danzo wanted: to give the Hokage (him) control of the situation. But then Koto was broken when Mifune realised that this idea came from Danzo’s Koto. Did that clear it up?

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    • Yeah I get it. Once it's cast it's in effect, and once an outside stimulus makes you realize yourself it's rendered useless. That's it's drawback. Just like Sasuke after a long while discovered the definite way to break Tsukuyomi, instead of reverse countering the Genjutsu, feeling that he broke it or overpowered it, only to notice again that it's still Genjutsu. But wait. That means Shisui attempting to use it on Fugaku would have been pointless to. Also, if Koto is used on Madara in this case. Who'd indicate to him that he's being controlled?

      "Now, in regards to your quote, Ao described his chakra network, and Shisui’s eye in particular. Naturally, the network would have become quiet anyways once Danzo had executed the technique. Do you think Shisui’s eye would have remained active forever when it was cast on Itachi Uchiha? Because it clearly didn’t."

      Itachi mentioned something about Shisui's Mangekyou wearing off, when he told Bee and Naruto that Shisui's Kotoamatsukami released him from Kabuto's control. What did he mean by that? I'll quote what he said, "That Genjutsu broke Kabuto's control over me. However, it appears that the Mangekyou had already worn off." <--- This is from the anime, English Dub. I don't really know where the manga chapter is, and it's a lot to sift through to find.

      Also. What are the possibilities of the user being able to cast the Genjutsu and release it? What if after Danzo got caught, he released it, just like he subtly cast it?

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    • @Senjutsu

      I don't think it would have been completely useless on Fugaku, since the use of Koto would still deter him from the coup d'etat. Also, Shisui is the original owner of the eye, so he can use Koto dozens of times, rather than waiting years to utilise it.

      Madara's clones would indicate it. Clones only share their information and experiences once they poof, so if Koto is cast on a Madara clone or the real Madara, all the other Madaras would see the chakra build-up in Itachi/Crow's eyeball and alert the rest. Once that happens, Koto is out the window, since it can be used only once per decade.

      Well, we can only assume that the genjutsu is not permanent. If I cast Koto on you, and then I died, do you think that the genjutsu would persist even after my death? What Itachi says just confirms that Koto doesn't last forever. Even if it could, it would be hard to, since humans are so easily influenced by external forces that your "idea" would inevitably be influenced too.

      Danzo got caught around the time where he began to cast the technique, which is why Ao saw an active chakra network. Mifune had just started talking about Danzo's idea, which was when Ao checked Danzo. If Ao had waited any longer, he probably wouldn't have seen an active chakra network in Danzo, since the genjutsu would have already been executed, and Danzo would have deactivated Shisui's Sharingan.

      Again, it wouldn't make sense if his Sharingan remained active and was continually maintaining the technique, because that would render Koto pretty much useless; the genjutsu would always break when the target leaves the caster. >>> This was proven false given how Itachi travelled to Kabuto's hiding place, still under the influence of Koto, despite burning the bird and Shisui's last remaining eye.

      Socially and politically, Kotoamatsukami is god-tier. In terms of combat, it can be very good, but there are counters to it. In Itachi's hands, it can take a little while to set up, which can be very costly against fast opponents, such as Madara.

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    • Lool, remember you said bro (Well made me realize) that Koto is countered by outside influence. The Uchiha are the outside influence who so wanted the coup. The strange change of mind of Fugaku would trigger them, especially Yashiro and co. And isn't it said that Shisui could only use it once a decade?

      I don't think that would happen, because that really depends on Jason's ideal Koto command, which could most likely work against your clone helping Madara argument. Koto's also instantaneous

      Nahh wasn't the exact moment, it was after a while. This is seeming so contradictory now, comparing what you said to me and Ao. Ao noticed the colour of Shisui's eye and deduced that Danzo was using Koto. Then he goes on to talk about chakra network, when Mifune wanted to know if Koto was still active. From what you said. I'm believing now that Ao just opted to say what he said because of a mistaken belief, that Koto works like normal Visual Genjutsu. Also. First you indicate to me that the jutsu is just cast, and then that's it. Now you're making it sound as if he has to maintain his chakra to cast it, which you are telling me doesn't make sense because of such and such. I'm getting confused

      You misunderstand. I mean what if he cast it (In the way that you proposed to me, that it's just cast). Then, did some Sharingan magic again to dispel it. Not really let it go like he was maintaining it. You've already said that maintaining Koto doesn't make sense and I understand that.

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    • UltimaDude wrote:

      I actually don't think that Madara would actually use as many wood clones as he did in the fight against Kages. If anything, he'll probably make them if Naruto makes a multitude of shadow clones (though, he hasn't made more than 3 while in the mode).

      The way I see this go down is Madara focusing more on Naruto. If Madara ends up taking too much time dealing with Naruto, he can make a wood clone to deal with Itachi. Madara has the means to restrict Kurama Sage Mode via Wood Dragon and Rinnegan rods. The clone deals with Itachi rather easily with superior ninjutsu and a superior Susanoo that can be maintained longer than Itachi can maintain his. If push comes to shove, then Madara simply ends it with PS.

      Yeah, I guess users forget how powerful Madara is. Edo Madara with ~25 wood clones is at minimum gonna wear Naruto and Itachi down.

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    • No, only Shisui's crow can use it once a decade and Itachi thinks that with Hashi DNA it can be lessened from that.

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    • @Senjutsu

      People disagreeing with Fugaku won't make him realise he is under Koto. For all intents and purposes, Fugaku would still believe that stopping the coup d'etat is his own idea. No Uchiha would say "Fugaku, you're under genjutsu", they'd say "Fugaku, I disagree with you" or something along those lines. Hence, Fugaku would not realise he is under genjutsu, he'd just think that folks are disagreeing with him, unless somehow an Uchiha explicitly says to him that someone has cast Kotoamatsukami on him. When I said earlier that humans are heavily influenced by external factors, I did specify that Koto will inevitably fail, insinuating that it wouldn't happen quickly. It's essentially another way of averting the genjutsu, except its not realising that you're under genjutsu, its just changing your mind about "your" idea. BUT, this is an unreliable method of getting out of Koto, because you are fully depending on external factors, and it is also dependent on the target's convictions as well as the company he keeps >>>>> Realising genjutsu is more efficient at avoiding Koto than eventually changing your mind due to external factors. This has gotten more complicated than it needed to be, but it is partly my fault, I could have worded it better, so I apologise.

      Also, Fugaku is the voice of reason for the Uchiha, most of them would reluctantly comply anyways.

      Shisui could use his own eye more than once a decade lol. It makes no sense that you would think he can only use it once every ten years, its his eye.

      Bro, you've misunderstood some of my points. Koto is by all means not instantaneous, and I've said this quite a lot, and I'll say it again. It took a dozen panels for Nagato to acknowledge the build-up of chakra in Itachi's eyeball, to then warn Naruto, to then have Itachi's Mangekyo fully activate in that scene, to then have Naruto begin the long process of regurgitating this crow, to then cast Koto. By no means is it instantaneous. Madara's one handseal to create 25 wood clones and 3 handseals to summon Tengai Shinsei, took 3 panels in total, and thus would be incredibly faster.

      I said that Koto is not a continuous technique that someone needs to maintain. You were the one who implied that it was. You said that the reason that Mifune broke out was because Danzo "stopped" the jutsu, when in reality, Mifune broke out because of realisation. Danzo clearly didn't stop anything.

      You even said it yourself. Ao said the technique "is undone", not that "Danzo stopped it".

      The moment Ao realised that Danzo was using Koto directly followed the moment when Mifune talked about surrendering all power to the Hokage. I said that Danzo maintaining the technique doesn't make sense, because it doesn't. Simple as that.

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    • so it seems that most assume that Edo Madara wins because of PS and Tengai Shinsei.

      Yes. those are some deadly cards in the hands of Edo Madara, but aren't you guys really downplaying the sheer power of KSM or even KM Naruto.

      Let's bust those two Jutsu of Madara first.

      for starters. Edo Madara was on par with SM Hashirama. it was clear when before Madara was revived both had each other pinned down, and even then Hashirama had a slight edge. in that battle, from the few panels we saw, Madara used PS and Hashirama used the wood human-dragon jutsu. the fact that Hashirama didnt use the thousand hands buddha and still drew with an edge further proves the point. only once revived did Madara got the edge over Edo Hashirama. and we know that their Edo selves were weaker than their original selves.

      and maybe you havent forgotten, but Edo Hashirama clearly stated that he was inferior to incomplete Juubito. so it would be clear that Edo Madara is inferior to incomplete Juubito too. (Madara banked on the heart seal thing and such other tactic to control Obito if he deviated from the path).

      Yet Naruto in KSM was not only able to follow complete Juubito, but put in some attacks. it was Naruto's Rasengan that on multiple occassions broke through the TSB shields fromed by Obito. (You would say that SM works on Juubi Jinchuriki so that is not a contesting point, but it is as TSBs can nullify any form of ninjutsu, but not Senjutsu, doesnot mean that being hit by Senjutsu techs make them suddenly go poof.)

      the fact that KSM Naruto powered Rasengans could destroy TSB shields, it can easily destroy PS. then there are KSM powered TBB and rasenshuriken and all other variations in Naruto's arsenal.

      also, KSM Naruto with combined tailed attacks of the Biju destroyed a revived Madara with Hashirama's Senjutsu (+ the Kyubi chakra he sucked out of many shinobi in his path) humanoid Susanoo and badly damaged Madara.

      So the idea KSM Naruto cannot deal with edo Madara PS is a joke.

      as for Tengai Shinsei, those things are roughly half the size of mountains at best and they come to earth not like meteorites, but prety slowly (obvious with how easily Ohnoki just flew up and caught it) and you know what is capable of destroying freaking mountains---- TBB. the TBB that Naruto flicked off of the other Biju destroyed mountains each and you think a TBB from even KM Naruto cannot destroy Tengai Shinsei. wow.

      Also Madara could probably use one Tengai Shinsei at a time. yes he used a second, but that was some seconds later. it clearly was not a rapid fire like how biju can fire TBBs. it probably has to do with the Rinnegan being a fake. it is why Edo Madara couldnt even use Limbo in this state.

      also. Naruto by giving a tiny bit of his and kurama's chakra to the alliance giving them a small shroud saved their asses without a single injury on them even when hit point blank by Tenpenchii.

      Tengai Shinsei is not a freaking meteorite that can end the world. it barely destroyed the area where the fourth division was and all the defence was the mere shields of Gaara and Ohnoki. on the other hand, like i said above, Naruto's KM cloak gives him far greater durability.

      as for the wood clone Susanoo thing. they were 25 of them against five and yet they couldnt defeat the Gokage. and did you forget that Naruto pulled similar feats with his clones as he took on Kage level shinobi too.

      even then this wood clones can only manifest humanoid Susanoo, which definitly will be far weaker to the same Susanoo manifested by revived Madara with Hashirama Senjutsu so i dont need to tell you what their fate will be. they will be smashed.

      Naruto in SM alone or tiny bits of Kurama's chakra should destroy them. he has the Odama Rasengan Barrage that destroyed the forest jutsu when Naruto clone was really at the weakest and badly hurt Kurama.

      to me Madara's real arsenal is the woood dragon and his Edo body. the later can be sealed away after Naruto does enough damage by Itachi and the Sword of Totsuka. the former will be tricky, but with just releaing KM would work like it already did once.

      Naruto in KSM is too fast and really to strong from Edo Madara or any Madara outside of Juubidara. Naruto also has senses that can catch upto the seeed of Juubito and even attack him and penetrate through TSB defence.

      i dont even understand why you guys think that KSM Naruto can actually be defeated by Madara.

      the only thing that can defeat KSM level Naruto from non Juubidara Madara is Limbo and Edo Madara cannot use it.

      so yes. KSM Naruto and Itachi actually win. not that Itachi can be more useful than a backup to either use the Sword of Totsuka or the Mirror.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: I never strayed from this point. Do you not read my posts before you reply to them? Now, can you prove that Itachi would utilize his special crow in this fight despite never doing so while alive and only being summoned due to a trigger he placed way before his death?

      Yeah you did. I can't prove that Itachi would use tsukuyomi or amaterasu, but that doesn't mean he won't right? ok. He knew Madara was planning world domination in the akatsuki, and he has a one shot tech that could eliminate that right away, you do the math.


      Halcyonite wrote: Naruto’s attacks are strong af, and they would break through Madara’s Susanoo eventually, but not fast enough before Madara has already cast his techniques. Naruto will reach Madara’s Susanoo in a second, sure, but he ain’t breaking it in a second, last time I checked, Bijuu dama don’t fire instantaneously. If anything, Naruto firing off his Bijuu Dama would only make things worse, as it would cause large chunks of rock to break apart and coming crashing down on them.


      The technique will take EVERYONE out, and Madara would eventually reform because he is an Edo. And you can’t seal someone who has turned into Edo dust, and when you have been crushed by meteors/busy fighting an army of Susanoo.

      Kurama avatar tanked a juubi streamed bijju dama....>>>meteor

      It took one panel for Madara to create his clones and another two for him to summon the meteors. By then, it doesn’t matter if Madara is under Koto or not, as the oncoming deaths of Naruto and Itachi are inevitable at that point. They can’t do crap about the incoming Tengai Shinseis.

      • Now the clones has to (a) activate susanoo (b) arrive to the duo to battle. Koto has to be (a)summoned and (b). activated. Now which is faster, goo goo gah gah?
      • As proved above they can do crap about tengai shinsei and clones.

      Also, I disagree that it was Danzo stopping Kotoamatsukami that let Mifune out of the genjutsu. With that logic, you have contradicted yourselves. You imply that Koto is a genjutsu that needs to be continuously maintained in order for it to work, yet the crow took only a single look at Itachi for its effects to be placed on him.

      That's because the crow was programmed with a single command and the user must abide to that no matter what. It's like amaterasu and amaterasu transcription seal, the latter can only be used on one specified target, and the opposite for the other. Danzo's situation was ever changing and they even said he' stopped controlling..Itachi's command can be make us win or die bitch die

      Thus, I don’t have much trouble believing that Madara should be able to break free when he looks at the chakra build-up in Itachi’s eyeball and the build-up in the eye of the crow, not to mention the crow emerging out of nowhere in the first place.

      How would he break free when he doesn't even know how the jutsu workS? or that he's even under it

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Yeah you did. I can't prove that Itachi would use tsukuyomi or amaterasu, but that doesn't mean he won't right? ok. He knew Madara was planning world domination in the akatsuki, and he has a one shot tech that could eliminate that right away, you do the math.

      Yeah, no I haven't

      UltimaDude wrote: Itachi generally doesn't have access to his special crow

      UltimaDude wrote: The point is that he doesn't use it which makes mentioning it moot.

      UltimaDude wrote: He never used it prior to being an Edo, so there's no reason for him to use it here when he already has a means to win via the Totsuka Blade.

      UltimaDude wrote: Why would I need to explain how he'll win using the Totsuka Blade? I just said that it is an already available way for Itachi to win.

      UltimaDude wrote: Oh, something he never used in combat (crow came out because Naruto looked at Itachi's eyes) is more plausible? Ok, Tengai Shinsei spam then

      UltimaDude wrote: The absolute irony of your statement is hilarious. Madara literally stomps on Itachi while he deals with Naruto with Wood Release and Rinnegan techniques.

      UltimaDude wrote: And you do know that Koto is not part of Itachi's usual arsenal and has only been used in a very specual circumstance, right? I'm not sure how you're not getting this.

      UltimaDude wrote: Said special circumstance is Koto being programmed to activate when the crow (or vessel of the crow) looks at Itachi's eyes after much time since Itachi's death. This hypothetical fight is by no means a special circumstance and involves a hypothetical live Itachi who is not suffering from his illness. While alive, Itachi has never utilized his special crow, which would make him using it here OOC. How are you not getting this? Then, you dare poke fun at me for mentioning something Madara has never done (Tengai Shinsei spam) despite doing the exact same thing for Itachi. Koto is not a factor here, whether you like it or not.

      UltimaDude wrote: Too bad he has never used it while alive, therfore it's a non-factor here

      My other posts were direct responses to your other arguments. Dishonest is as dishonest does.

      Except you can prove that Itachi would use Tsukuyomi and/or Amaterasu because there's precedent for it. He has use both of those techniques quite a few times over the course of his on-screen confrontations. Your premise is extremely weak. Otherwise, why didn't Itachi use Koto on either Pain or Obito? Also, this is a hypothetical fight where the motive of the combatants is to simply win.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Except you can prove that Itachi would use Tsukuyomi and/or Amaterasu because there's precedent for it. He has use both of those techniques quite a few times over the course of his on-screen confrontations.

      I was referring to the need of you going off case, but that's irrelevant. I can't prove that he would use tsukuyomi or amaterasu against Madara, because he never fought Madara whilst alive right? your logic.

      • UltimaDude wrote: Too bad he has never used it while alive, therefore it's a non-factor here.

      Your premise is extremely weak. Otherwise, why didn't Itachi use Koto on either Pain or Obito? Also, this is a hypothetical fight where the motive of the combatants is to simply win.

      • If he used KOTO on Obito, pein would still continue, and vice versa. Or plot. Choose one.
      • Making it more of a reason for him to use the jutsu.
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    • @Jason

      So are you allowing Itachi to have the crow already out from the get-go? Because that's not how it happened in the manga. That took time to come out of Naruto and a while to activate, since the activation process is sequential: Itachi activates his Mangekyo on crow -> crow activates Mangekyo on Itachi.

      Also, I've only just figured this out, but how would a similar Koto trap be created for Madara in the first place? Itachi was able to make the Koto trap in the manga because he programmed it to react to his specific eyes, since he figured that Sasuke would transplant them into himself. Obviously, he was able to create this trap because he had access to his own eyes. >>> But Itachi has never had access to Madara's Mangekyo Sharingan before. He has never been in close proximity or in possession of Madara's eyes either. So how would the Koto crow know to work on Madara Uchiha's eyes in the first place? It would have no image of Madara's Mangekyo Sharingan imbedded into it. How can the crow be programmed to work on an eye that Itachi has never had access to? Itachi once programmed his eyes, whilst in Sasuke, to use Amaterasu on Obito because he has seen and interacted with Obito closely. Itachi was partially lucky with his plan; he HAD the eyes to make the Koto crow effective for both situations of Edo Itachi Uchiha and Sasuke Uchiha. I don't think that his Koto crow can be used universally unless he has had access to the specific individual's eyes for the programming of the technique. I think I've undone your whole argument with this, unless you're gonna tell me that Koto crow can be programmed to work on a specific eye that Itachi has never seen or has no recollection of.

      Madara's Susanoo was completely destroyed, and his body was obliterated completely too by the Tengai Shinsei, like running a hot knife through butter. This was Edo Madara. Later on, a repressed Edo Madara (repressed by Hashirama's Wood Dragons) perfectly tanked a senjutsu-amped Oodama Rasenshuriken point-blank to his body like it was nothing, and this was before all of his upgrades. This is insane, considering that a normal rasenshuriken caused substantial damage to the Third Raikage. >>> This obviously shows that rather than ninjutsu, the sheer force of momentum and the impact of the Tengai Shinsei was leagues above the damage caused by Naruto's amped techniques to a weakened Madara, as it turned Madara's body and his Susanoo to nothing. Hence, whilst a Juubi streamed Bijuu Dama is incredibly strong, chakra preservation and resilience is a thing. No, I am not comparing a senjutsu-amped Rasenshuriken to Juubi Bijuu Dama, but my point is that you are making an assumption that a Tengai Shinsei, let alone DOZENS of Tengai Shinseis, cannot destroy the Kurama avatar by comparing it to a technique of a completely different nature.

      How does your reference to Itachi's Amaterasu prove that Koto is continual? Itachi doesn't maintain Amaterasu, he casts it and it spreads on its own, as shown when the Uchiha Hideout was engulfed in Amaterasu. No, Ao said the technique was "undone", as in broken, not that Danzo stopped controlling it. Bro, Kotoamatsukami having to be maintained nerfs its utility like crazy, and all the other instances of its use contradict what you are trying to infer.

      I've explained this before, but Madara doesn't need to know the exact name of the technique. If all of the clones looking at the afflicted Madara acknowledge the build-up of chakra in Itachi's eyeball with their multiple Rinnegans, then they will know that a genjutsu has been cast and break the afflicted Madara out of it by informing him, because realisation breaks this genjutsu. Also, all the other clones wouldn't be affected by this genjutsu either, since clones don't share the experiences and feelings of each other until they poof.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: I was referring to the need of you going off case, but that's irrelevant. I can't prove that he would use tsukuyomi or amaterasu against Madara, because he never fought Madara whilst alive right? your logic.

      • UltimaDude wrote: Too bad he has never used it while alive, therefore it's a non-factor here.

      You mean the need of addressing each and every point you make? And here's more of your dishonesty. Itachi has used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi multiple times, therefore it's more than likely he would use them in this fight. On the other hand, he has never used Koto while alive and it only activated due to a trigger he set up before his death, therefore he's not very likely, if at all, to use it in this fight. Capisce?

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      • If he used KOTO on Obito, pein would still continue, and vice versa. Or plot. Choose one.
      • Making it more of a reason for him to use the jutsu.
      • If he used Koto on Pain, the entire Eye of the Moon Plan falls apart, as Nagato was the only one with the Rinnegan to seal the Tailed Beasts in the Gedo statue. No Tailed Beasts. No Eye of the Moon Plan. So, there goes your argument.
      • Except it's not, their motive would be winning just for the sake of winning. It's not more of a reason than supposedly saving the world
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    • Halcyonite wrote: So are you allowing Itachi to have the crow already out from the get-go? Itachi has never seen Madara's eyes before. He has never been in close proximity or in possession of Madara's eyes either. So how would the Koto crow be programmed to work on Madara Uchiha's eyes in the first place, since the programming can only occur before the fight

      • I keep saying the crow needs to be summoned. And the crow is not in Naruto it's available as a summon.
      • Obito's sharingan looked like everyone else's yet the transcription seal amaterasu worked worked on him. And the eye can be reprogrammed during the fight also, Itachi can be in the kurama avatar whilst doing this.


      Madara's Susanoo was completely destroyed, and his body was obliterated completely too by the Tengai Shinsei,Later on, a repressed Edo Madara (repressed by Wood Dragons) perfectly tanked a senjutsu-amped Oodama Rasenshuriken point-blank to his body like it was nothing,

      Nothing hints he tanked it and came out unscathed, he went off panel afterall. Besides Lee kicked him in half. About your other comment I only presented an idea about Kurama tanking the TS, i already showed he can destroy it, which is what he'd most likely do compared to just sit there and wait for it to fall on them.


      Ao said the technique was "undone", as in broken, not that Danzo stopped controlling it. Bro, Kotoamatsukami having to be maintained nerfs its utility like crazy, and all the other instances of its use contradict what you are trying to infer.

      Ao said right now his chakra network is quiet hinting that before it wasn't. He says this whilst staring at Danzo with the byakugan. I did say there is also the programmed version of Koto, any works fines, you choose lmao.

      I've explained this before, but Madara doesn't need to know the exact name of the technique. If all of the clones looking at the afflicted Madara acknowledge the build-up of chakra in Itachi's eyeball with their multiple Rinnegans, then they will know that a genjutsu has been cast and break the afflicted Madara out of it by informing him, because realisation breaks this genjutsu.

      Knowing the name changes nothing, knowing the mechanics of it does. So Madara would create clones, plus summon meteor, plus join in with his clones? woah lmao, talk about not madara. Anyways, bijju dama spams cleans them up and koto solos the remainder. Knowing or seeing the chakra buildup doesn't equate to knowing which technique is being casted and how to counter it.


      UltimaDude wrote: Itachi has used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi multiple times, therefore it's more than likely he would use them in this fight. On the other hand, he has never used Koto while alive and it only activated due to a trigger he set up before his death, therefore he's not very likely, if at all, to use it in this fight

      But he never fought Madara whilst alive, so he wouldn't use the techs on him dude, your logic. Like i said, there was no reason for him to use it alive, which part of this don't you understand.

      • If he used Koto on Pain, the entire Eye of the Moon Plan falls apart, as Nagato was the only one with the Rinnegan to seal the Tailed Beasts in the Gedo statue. No Tailed Beasts. No Eye of the Moon Plan. So, there goes your argument.

      Obito takes the rinnegan...there goes your argument. Besides Koto on Pein would not affect Nagato.

      • Except it's not, their motive would be winning just for the sake of winning. It's not more of a reason than supposedly saving the world

      What?

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: But he never fought Madara whilst alive, so he wouldn't use the techs on him dude, your logic. Like i said, there was no reason for him to use it alive, which part of this don't you understand.

      So you're deliberately making a straw-man. Dishonest is as dishonest does. I have already addressed the weak excuse.

      Obito takes the rinnegan...there goes your argument. Besides Koto on Pein would not affect Nagato.

      And just how would he do that when he waited until Nagato died to get the Rinnegan? Koto would work on Nagato through Pain just like how it worked on Kabuto through Itachi.

      What?

      • You: He knew Madara was planning world domination in the akatsuki, and he has a one shot tech that could eliminate that right away, you do the math.
      • Me: Your premise is extremely weak. Otherwise, why didn't Itachi use Koto on either Pain or Obito? Also, this is a hypothetical fight where the motive of the combatants is to simply win.
      • You [in response to bold]: Making it more of a reason for him to use the jutsu.
      • Me: Except it's not, their motive would be winning just for the sake of winning. It's not more of a reason than supposedly saving the world

      Can you not follow a conversation? Welp, I'm done discussing to you. The way you reach for any argument to be made for Itachi's (and Naruto's) victory is off-putting.

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    • @Jason

      You're making an assumption that Itachi has made a summoning contract with this crow.

      As you've said yourself, every eye is innate and different, not only the pattern shown. Shisui's eyes had a distinct colour that Ao recognised, which implies that there are more differences with each eye than said pattern. Itachi would have still been able to programme the usage of Amaterasu against Obito's specific eye.

      You're clutching at straws here. No, Itachi cannot reprogram the eye during a battle, that's a ridiculous claim. Why don't you try and say that Itachi can reprogram an opponent's eye to implode on itself while you're at it.

      We can clearly see that Madara tanked the Oodama Senjutsu-amped Rasenshuriken. Even after the smoke clears, Madara is clearly not regenerating, as there are visible off-colour flakes that have not regained his skin colour. Hence, we can understand that Madara definitely did tank that attack. Besides, the smoke literally left in the next couple panels, and you were trying to tell me that Koto is an "instantaneous" attack earlier.

      Your reference of Lee kicking through Madara aids my argument as well. It reinforces the notion that ninjutsu attacks and physical attacks are of a very different nature. I am very sure that a senjutsu-amped Rasenshuriken has more destructive power than a kick from Lee, but as I said earlier, chakra preservation and resilience is a thing. Which brings us back to your point that I disagree with: Kurama avatar tanking Juubi Bijuu Dama, a chakra-based attack, does not mean that it can tank an extremely strong physical attack, like Tengai Shinsei.

      Ao said his "chakra network was quiet" because Danzo was literally casting Koto in that moment. If Ao said something like "Danzo stopped controlling Mifune", or "Danzo lifted the technique", then I'd have more truck with your argument, but he didn't, Ao said "the jutsu is undone". Mifune had just begun to talk about giving power and leadership to the Hokage, just as Ao inspected Danzo. Again, the shown process of Koto conflicts with what you are trying to argue; Koto is clearly not continuous and I've explained this before. The crow and the eye were both burned with Amaterasu and its effects (cast only once) remained intact. Danzo's usage of the eye would have been the same: it is cast only once, and Mifune has a new "idea" that remains, whether or not Shisui's eye is active. Nothing implies that Danzo was using this genjutsu as soon as the Summit began, and nothing implies that he ceased a continuous casting of the genjutsu. It would have been suspicious if Mifune immediately began talking as if he had already made up his mind before a "Summit", an event of debate and deliberation.

      The only difference between genuine Koto and programmed Koto is that programmed Koto is limited to who it can target. It has to be programmed to target a specific individual, whereas Koto inside a person's head (who understands how to use it) is instead effective on anyone because of the caster's direct judgment and control of the tech.

      It honestly baffles me why you think that this is out-of-character for Madara. He sent down the Tengai Shinsei and gladly obliterated himself because he knew that he'd reform and that the 4th Division would be decimated. As for the clones, like Madara would care lol. He wouldn't mind because he has unlimited chakra, so it's no loss for him. We've seen Edo Madara do everything that I have said in one single fight against the 4th Division and the 5 Kage. STOP using this bs excuse to back up your argument and undermine my own. Anyways, seeing the chakra build-up in the eyeball is a key indicator of a genjutsu being used, as seen with Ao and many other Naruto-world battles, and Madara is a war-veteran who eventually turned on his fellow Uchiha and the Hidden Leaf; he'd be aware of this indicator.

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    • @Flat. Lool, but Shisui doesn't have Hashi's DNA. Either way. I'm remembering pretty clearly that Itachi said that Koto could only be used once a decade. Not that only the crow with the eye could use it once a decade.

      @Hal. It's aitee. No fuss. I really think it's a mistaken belief on his part because he doesn't really know how Koto works. Well at least in terms of what he said about chakra network. Also. Lol, they won't indicate to Fugaku that it's Koto used. I don't even think they know about it. What I imagine they'd do is be in confusion about Fugaku's sudden change of ideal and reprimand him, or pugnaciously remind of his former self. Especially Yashiro, "What?! But captain! We've wanted this coup for sometime now. We've discussed it so much! It's reason and cause, down to it's necessity. You even agreed to it. What's with the sudden change of heart?! Don't tell me captain. Is this because of Itachi?!" Something along these lines I think would be mentioned especially by Yashiro who'd always make outbursts at Itachi in some of the meetings because of opposing thought on the coup, and the Uchihas' dissatisfaction.

      "Shisui could use his own eye more than once a decade lol. It makes no sense that you would think he can only use it once every ten years, its his eye."

      Lool bro are you sure? Man idk. And hold up we're talking about Kotoamatsukami not his Mangekyou lmao

      "Bro, you've misunderstood some of my points. Koto is by all means not instantaneous, and I've said this quite a lot, and I'll say it again. It took a dozen panels for Nagato to acknowledge the build-up of chakra in Itachi's eyeball, to then warn Naruto, to then have Itachi's Mangekyo fully activate in that scene, to then have Naruto begin the long process of regurgitating this crow, to then cast Koto. By no means is it instantaneous. Madara's one handseal to create 25 wood clones and 3 handseals to summon Tengai Shinsei, took 3 panels in total, and thus would be incredibly faster."

      Nah I just got confused by one of your points, where I said it seemed that you are changing your words making it seem like Koto requires active attention to be cast (Where you said before that it doesn't). Cause Koto is instantaneous bro. Itachi only did what you mentioned to get the crow out of Naruto. I remember when it got out all it took was a glance. But still, in this case that Jason's proposing. Itachi would have to mind control the crow, that'd more likely be about flying, to cast Koto on Madara. Whether he'd bother with the crow or not is a thing to put in question. He'd definitely notice Itachi's shift in behaviour though. But still, would he bother? I barely misunderstand you dude, you're popular with me for sharp thought and analysis.

      "I said that Koto is not a continuous technique that someone needs to maintain. You were the one who implied that it was. You said that the reason that Mifune broke out was because Danzo "stopped" the jutsu, when in reality, Mifune broke out because of realisation. Danzo clearly didn't stop anything. You even said it yourself. Ao said the technique "is undone", not that "Danzo stopped it". The moment Ao realised that Danzo was using Koto directly followed the moment when Mifune talked about surrendering all power to the Hokage. I said that Danzo maintaining the technique doesn't make sense, because it doesn't. Simple as that."

      Yeah I know, but here, "Danzo got caught around the time where he began to cast the technique, which is why Ao saw an active chakra network. Mifune had just started talking about Danzo's idea, which was when Ao checked Danzo. If Ao had waited any longer, he probably wouldn't have seen an active chakra network in Danzo, since the genjutsu would have already been executed, and Danzo would have deactivated Shisui's Sharingan." It seemed opposite to what you said - That I understood and agreed with - at first.

      "The moment Ao realised that Danzo was using Koto directly followed the moment when Mifune talked about surrendering all power to the Hokage."

      Back to this though. Idk how it was in the manga but. In the anime. Mifune touched on things pertaining to the Raikage and all the other Kage, deciding on who should lead the Allied Forces (Danzo's idea). After this, Ao said to himself that he felt that something was off and needed to check it out. Then he sniffed out Danzo, then noticed the colour of Shisui's eye and Hashirama's chakra (Well tbh, he noticed Hashi's chakra just as a foreign chakra. We know it as Hashi's chakra so I mentioned it a Hashi's chakra). Anyway. Ao noticed Shisui's eye colour a good while after Mifune talking. That's what I really mean't. Does the anime confuse with the Manga?

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    • Shisui doesn't need Hashi DNA, its his own eye. Danzo who isn't an Uchiha or an Uzumaki or a Senju had Shisui's eye and regardless of the Hashi DNA he can use Koto twice in one day, once on Mifune and he was going to attempt it again later right before Sasuke stabbed him through Karin. If Shisui who is the owner had his eyeballs, he could at least use Koto twice per eyeball per day, or just twice a day.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: So you're deliberately making a straw-man. Dishonest is as dishonest does. I have already addressed the weak excuse.

      Call it what you want, it's a product of your logic afterall and it will remain that.


      Koto would work on Nagato through Pain just like how it worked on Kabuto through Itachi.

      Itachi used Koto on himself and not kabuto, rip argument again.


      • You: He knew Madara was planning world domination in the akatsuki, and he has a one shot tech that could eliminate that right away, you do the math.
      • Me: Your premise is extremely weak. Otherwise, why didn't Itachi use Koto on either Pain or Obito? Also, this is a hypothetical fight where the motive of the combatants is to simply win.
      • You [in response to bold]: Making it more of a reason for him to use the jutsu.
      • Me: Except it's not, their motive would be winning just for the sake of winning. It's not more of a reason than supposedly saving the world

      Can you not follow a conversation? Welp, I'm done discussing to you. The way you reach for any argument to be made for Itachi's (and Naruto's) victory is off-putting.

      All i did was say what to that statement, hinting i didn't understand what that statement means,how did you get that i'm lost lmao?

      Halcyonite wrote: You're making an assumption that Itachi has made a summoning contract with this crow.

      FFS can you summarise your thoughts and not make such a lengthy post. His clone summoned it via his cloak.

      Shisui's eyes had a distinct colour that Ao recognised, which implies that there are more differences with each eye than said pattern Itachi would have still been able to programme the usage of Amaterasu against Obito's specific eye.

      That difference is only known to be noticed by the byakugan, besides he set the transcription seal to activate on the event Obito reveals his sharingan to sasuke, probably would've worked against kakashi also, considering they had the same eye, who knows. irrelevant.


      You're clutching at straws here. No, Itachi cannot reprogram the eye during a battle, that's a ridiculous claim. Why don't you try and say that Itachi can reprogram an opponent's eye to implode on itself while you're at it.

      How is that even close? and why can't he lmao (from reprogramming the eye during battle). Nothing's stopping him here.

      We can clearly see that Madara tanked the Oodama Senjutsu-amped Rasenshuriken. Even after the smoke clears, Madara is clearly not regenerating, as there are visible off-colour flakes that have not regained his skin colour.I disagree with: Kurama avatar tanking Juubi Bijuu Dama, a chakra-based attack, does not mean that it can tank an extremely strong physical attack, like Tengai Shinsei.Besides, the smoke literally left in the next couple panels, and you were trying to tell me that Koto is an "instantaneous" attack earlier.

      Like I said he went off panel, with the first having him restrained with wooddragon, post RS he is now restrained by deity gates after he comes back on panel, he could'nt regen'd during that.. And like i said, lee kicked him in half, his absorbing ninjutsu was restrained by the dragon so how would it not cut him or something...Why is that still a topic, i explicitly stated he can destroy it than wait and tank it. The casting speed of it is instantenous, unlike TS's casting speed.

      Ao said his "chakra network was quiet" because Danzo was literally casting Koto in that moment. Nothing implies that Danzo was using this genjutsu as soon as the Summit began, and nothing implies that he ceased a continuous casting of the genjutsu. It would have been suspicious if Mifune immediately began talking as if he had already made up his mind before a "Summit", an event of debate and deliberation.

      When Ao used the byakugan, Mifune had already chosen danzo to be the leader of the alliance, why would he still have the need of having an active chakra network? It is shisui's other eye afterall, maybe it has a different ability than just a programmed koto command, which is continuous command of action. Then if that's the case this is irrelevant. I did point out it being continuous of not doesn't matter for the duo to win, as the command can be enough.


      Anyways, seeing the chakra build-up in the eyeball is a key indicator of a genjutsu being used, as seen with Ao and many other Naruto-world battles, and Madara is a war-veteran who eventually turned on his fellow Uchiha and the Hidden Leaf; he'd be aware of this indicator.

      No it's not. there goes your argument, chakra taxing techs are what's required for the user to amass a huge amount. And can the rinnegan even see chakra buildup lmao.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Shisui doesn't need Hashi DNA, its his own eye. Danzo who isn't an Uchiha or an Uzumaki or a Senju had Shisui's eye and regardless of the Hashi DNA he can use Koto twice in one day, once on Mifune and he was going to attempt it again later right before Sasuke stabbed him through Karin. If Shisui who is the owner had his eyeballs, he could at least use Koto twice per eyeball per day, or just twice a day.

      Factually incorrect, Shisui can only use Koto once per eyeball every ten years.

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    • Which Edo Madara we talking about? Because he got some more leeway when using his power once Kabuto was made to release the Edo Tensei.

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    • @Ninja of War Bullshit. Itachi's Crow could only use the tech once every 10 years with the context being B asking why Itachi didn't use it on Sasuke before(hint hint even at the Uchiha Massacre which was about 10 years before hand, the crow had Shisui's eye) so therefor this is referring to the Crow. Shisui wasn't much older than Itachi(3 or 4 years from what Seelentau has put together) and he awakened his Mangekyo after becoming a Genin, it is literally impossible for Shisui to know anything about the tech if he could only use it every 10 years per eye. Use some logic.

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    • @FlatZone

      Speculation <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Fact.

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    • Yes, the crow can only use Koto every 10 years that is a fact.

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    • FlatZone wrote: @Ninja of War Bullshit. Itachi's Crow could only use the tech once every 10 years with the context being B asking why Itachi didn't use it on Sasuke before(hint hint even at the Uchiha Massacre which was about 10 years before hand, the crow had Shisui's eye) so therefor this is referring to the Crow. Shisui wasn't much older than Itachi(3 or 4 years from what Seelentau has put together) and he awakened his Mangekyo after becoming a Genin, it is literally impossible for Shisui to know anything about the tech if he could only use it every 10 years per eye. Use some logic.

      Too funny. Your assumptions flew right off the rails there.

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    • TheWanderingSpeck wrote: Which Edo Madara we talking about? Because he got some more leeway when using his power once Kabuto was made to release the Edo Tensei.

      There's only one Edo Madara. Madara wasn't restricted in any way before Kabuto was made to release ET.

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    • @Ninja of War You're assuming Shisui himself can only use Koto every 10 years per eye. That is an assumption alone that literally makes no sense. The crow on the other hand?? Yes it does indeed need 10 years to recharge. Example is Itachi put the eye in the crow when he was 11 and and Shisui died, before that Shisui said he attempted and failed to use Koto(on who Idk) so skip to 10 years later and its the year Itachi dies from his sickness, but the time of the 4th War. Itachi's summoning crow still has the eye and can finally use it, as 10 years has passed by. Shisui himself was never given some time limit on the move, you made that up.

      Edit

      Uchiha massacre took place 2 years AFTER Itachi obtained Shisui's eye and put it in his summoning crow btw, wanted to correct my other comment.

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    • @FlatZone

      What's even more funny is that your own logic betrays you, since how is confirmed that Itachi knows that the sharingan in the crow would recharge in 10 years in the first place.

      lol.

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    • Shisui was a Genin when he met Itachi who was in the Academy. Shisui was a Genin since around the time the 3rd War Ended Shisui acquired his Mangekyo while a Genin and after a friend/rival died and nothing is said to contradict any of this, do the math Here, if Itachi was 4-5 and Shisui died when Itachi was 11. Seelentau has already put all this information together, Shisui is around 2.5 years older than Itachi. So if he was 7-8 when Itachi was 4-5 then which NONE of this is contradicted btw even in the anime, then WHEN and HOW would Shisui have been able to figure out there was a 10 year recharge on his eyes techs?? he gained his Mangekyo as a Genin and died when he was about 14. Itachi had the eye in his crow for 10 years and could not use it the entire time, he even said so that means he tried it with the crow at one point and it didn't even activate, and at the 4th War it finally activated so what did Itachi conclude? that it took 10 years to recharge... for the CROW. It's actually really simply if you pay attention for once.

      For those who don't know what I was talking about concerning a timeline. Check this out.

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/User:Seelentau/Naruto_Timeline

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    • @Flat. You just admitted your own point bro. Danzo did that because of Hashi's cells (Even though you kinda worded it in a way to make it seem like it wasn't because of Hashi's cells). Without Hashi's cells he ain't using it more than once.

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    • Again.. listen.. The eye was in the CROW for 10 years, he could not activate it in the Crow until he attempted and it worked in the 4th War. It finally worked in the 4th War so Itachi came to the conclusion that the crow can't use it for 10 more years and he basically reiterates that and then goes on to incinerate the crow saying he doesn't want it to fall into somebody elses hands. Shisui had two eyes and was only 3 years older than Itachi, he acquired his MS as a Genin at the end of the 3rd Shinobi World War. HOW could he have even figured out that it would take 10 years for himself to use it? Answer is he couldn't have because he died at 14 years old when Itachi was 11. Shisui can use it more frequently, it was his set of eyes and he knew the techs in and outs because he obviously USED them before enough to know them, enough that others knew about the tech too.

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    • So who wins

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    • Yuhu123 wrote: So who wins

      What's up with you asking for definitive answers on these debates lol. It's pretty clear that there's no consensus in this discussion. Also, these battles never happened and we're all just fans of the series discussing who we think would win. In the end, none of our opinions matter.

      We will literally never know who wins because Kishimoto never wrote this battle.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: @Flat. You just admitted your own point bro. Danzo did that because of Hashi's cells (Even though you kinda worded it in a way to make it seem like it wasn't because of Hashi's cells). Without Hashi's cells he ain't using it more than once.

      Yep, @FlatZone says I don't pay attention, yet doesn't counter the point of it being confirmed Itachi knew Shisui's MS takes 10 years to recharge.

      @FlatZone

      How did Shisui know? I got one better, how did Itachi attach the TB and YM to his Susanno? Same answer I guess lol.

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    • I did counter it. You just want to ignore it as you usually do and PRETEND you didn't with some nonsense "counter-argument", get back to me when you actually have something to say lmao "Ninja Of War" xD

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    • FlatZone wrote: I did counter it. You just want to ignore it as you usually do and PRETEND you didn't with some nonsense "counter-argument", get back to me when you actually have something to say lmao "Ninja Of War" xD

      Lol. You seem to be forgetting that Itachi wanted to use Koto on Sasuke and that's why he "stored" it in Naruto. He didn't "attempt" to use it on himself or anybody, he knew about the cool-down and he planned to use it for Sasuke's sake. Saying that he didn't is going against the manga, saying he didn't know means Itachi is a poor planner and reckless, which is not the case.

      So therefore, you did not counter my point.

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    • He can always have a educated assumption because he's a good planner and isn't reckless. He knows the eye is obviously inside a CROW. The Crow was near Itachi and saw Itachi while he was putting it in Naruto yet it did not activate. Itachi KNOWS what the Crow can do because he is an educated researcher and and knows a Crow isn't the same as a human body. The Crow needs 10 years to re-charge, that's pretty simple to understand.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He can always have a educated assumption because he's a good planner and isn't reckless. He knows the eye is obviously inside a CROW. The Crow was near Itachi and saw Itachi while he was putting it in Naruto yet it did not activate. Itachi KNOWS what the Crow can do because he is an educated researcher and and knows a Crow isn't the same as a human body. The Crow needs 10 years to re-charge, that's pretty simple to understand.

      HaHaHa

      You crack me up. First you said Itachi only knew the time-frame after the crow came out, now you say it was because he knew the crow beforehand.

      Also, the crow didn't activate when Itachi stored it in Naruto because his MS was not active at the time.

      Koto has a 10 year cool-down, it's pretty simple to understand.

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    • His MS doesn't need to be activated, he said the Crow would react to HIS EYES. Don't go twisting things because it's not working in your favor Bud, I know that's what you are best at but it doesn't work with me.

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    • Lol, I'm not the one who had to change their story "bud".

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      HaHaHa

      You crack me up. First you said Itachi only knew the time-frame after the crow came out, now you say it was because he knew the crow beforehand.

      Uhm, the crow only popped out when edo Itachi used his MS. Which manga are you reading?

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    • The eyes are programmed to respond to Itachi's eyes using a technique, they only responded when he attempted to use a dojutsu on Naruto, which is the first time since the Crow was put in him that Itachi tried a dojutsu on him. Again, Itachi isn't stupid he can figure out that a Crow can't use the eyes as much as Shisui would be able to anyway. The Crow had the eye, the crow took 10 years to use the tech, Itachi said it would need 10 more years to use it again and then burned it. I already explained the other reasons why, again you either ignore or try to twist and downplay them.

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    • FlatZone wrote: The eyes are programmed to respond to Itachi's eyes using a technique, they only responded when he attempted to use a dojutsu on Naruto, which is the first time since the Crow was put in him that Itachi tried a dojutsu on him.

      So now you're changing it from "they're just programmed to respond to just his eyes, but when you were proven wrong now it's "his eyes using a technique." If you keep having to change the narrative because the series doesn't support your theories, then maybe it's time to rethink them.

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    • FlatZone wrote: The eyes are programmed to respond to Itachi's eyes using a technique, they only responded when he attempted to use a dojutsu on Naruto, which is the first time since the Crow was put in him that Itachi tried a dojutsu on him. Again, Itachi isn't stupid he can figure out that a Crow can't use the eyes as much as Shisui would be able to anyway. The Crow had the eye, the crow took 10 years to use the tech, Itachi said it would need 10 more years to use it again and then burned it. I already explained the other reasons why, again you either ignore or try to twist and downplay them.

      I don't know, you are seeing things that aren't there. Making connections where there are none. Despite no evidence, you claim your opinions as something more than speculation.

      Also, you first said that the crow was only programmed to Itachi eyes, now you changed it to Itachi's eyes using a technique on the person the crow is stored in.

      Lol, well guess what? edo Itachi didn't use a dojutsu on Naruto, he only activated his MS then.

      So, you are wrong on two counts here and a few before.

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    • It is still responding to his eyes, thats literally what he says. BUT if you for one second pulled your head out of your ass and checked it out you would notice Itachi's was attempting a Dojutsu and the Crow responded to that and activated, so YES it is set to respond to Itachi's eyes, and YES they are set to respond to Itachi's eyes using a Dojutsu as Nagato even points out Itachi was building chakra up in his eyes. So "LOL" yeah so funny that you again want to ignore something in order to fit your agenda

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    • What I see is the crow specifically reacting to Itachi's MS. Because if Itachi was attempting specifically a dojutsu, then Naruto would be hit by either Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi before the crow came out, and that'd be no good.

      It's set to his MS. You're trying very hard, Nagato sensing chakra build up is literally the MS activating lol

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    • No, Nagato insinuates that Amaterasu (chakra build up for it, which is a DOJUTSU) is about to be used and he even says so, then is shocked when nothing happens. Again you are making up some BS to fit your agenda. Try again. Mr. "trying very hard".

      In conclusion I think I should remember that I shouldn't take you two serious and you two have just proven why yet again.

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    • FlatZone wrote: No, Nagato insinuates that Amaterasu is about to be used and he even says so, then is shocked when nothing happens. Again you are making up some BS to fit your agenda. Try again. Mr. "trying very hard" xD

      That's literally what you are doing. Also, if you want reference to where Itachi has programmed something to activate to Sharingan/MS only it's when the transcription seal used on Sasuke activated to Obito's Sharingan.

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    • Here we go again, you ignored the Nagato part.. typical. Just move along now because your antics are getting old.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Here we go again, you ignored the Nagato part.. typical. Just move along now because your antics are getting old.

      Lol, if you want to address me use the @ sign. If we are talking about edo Nagato's reaction, uhm that's easily explained with the activation of the MS.

      Users will move along past your opinions because you won't provide facts.

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    • Edo Madara destroys both of them, there is nothing Itachi or Naruto can do to beat Madara.

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    • I literally just explained Nagato thought he was about to use Amaterasu(a dojutsu).. wow. Ok I'm going to ignore you now because you're doing your usual thing, bud.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I literally just explained Nagato thought he was about to use Amaterasu(a dojutsu).. wow. Ok I'm going to ignore you now because you're doing your usual thing, bud.

      You keep on moving the goalposts lol. Itachi activated his MS, Nagato thought Amaterasu was coming (for him yes), the crow popped out and used koto on Itachi cause he programmed it. He could program Shisui's eye to activate because he knew the cooldown period from Shisui. Please bring facts if you want to say otherwise.

      Oh and you ignored my point of Itachi placing Amaterasu in Sasuke to activate on sight with Obito's Shaingan.

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    • I didn't ignore that, that's not the same thing, that's transcription seal: amaterasu and it was set to activate upon seeing Obito's Sharingan and it did. This is different in that this was Shisui's eye and tech but inside a crow which has farrrr less chakra than Shisui did let alone a human would and only actually activated when Itachi attempted a Dojutsu tech with his eyes. Itachi has Shisui's set to activate under different albeit similar conditions. "lol hurr durr" If you're going to try and argue something, "please bring facts if you want to say otherwise" :) now time to commence ignoring you like I should have been.

      back to the subject at hand and to ignore irritating people who don't really know what they are talking about.

      Edo Madara's biggest advantages are his unlimited chakra refill and regeneration, only option to win for the two against him is to seal him. Naruto can create that opening he has the firepower and speed for it and Itachi has the speed and the sealing tech needed. Edo Madara may not have Limbo but he is an enemy that can not be taken lightly by anybody, he has Wood Release and Rinnegan. So in all honesty this battle goes to Madara 8 times out of 10 thanks to having Wood Release, Rinnegan and being an Edo.

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    • The kotoamatsukami crow was set to react to Itachi's eyes not his mangekyou lol. Itachi knew Sasuke would want the eternal mangekyou and that he would transplant the eyes. Now after the transplant, Sasuke wouldn't have Itachi's mangekyou eye patterns, but yet the crow would emerge and Sasuke would've gotten one shotted provided he attacked Konoha as according to Itachi himself.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: The kotoamatsukami crow was set to react to Itachi's eyes not his mangekyou lol. Itachi knew Sasuke would want the eternal mangekyou and that he would transplant the eyes. Now after the transplant, Sasuke wouldn't have Itachi's mangekyou eye patterns, but yet the crow would emerge and Sasuke would've gotten one shotted provided he attacked Konoha as according to Itachi himself.

      Nope, the crow only appeared when Itachi manifested his Mangekyo, not when Naruto and Itachi were in CQC.

      Also Sasuke literally has Itachi's pattern in his eyes lol, that's what having the EMS does.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: The kotoamatsukami crow was set to react to Itachi's eyes not his mangekyou lol.

      Lol?? In an earlier comment when I was describing Koto reacting to specific eyes, I used Obito as an example. Sasuke's eye reacted to Obito's sharingan specifically, and used Amaterasu. You said I was wrong and that Sasuke only saw a generic Sharingan, but it seems you're changing your tune now to fit this specific point that you're making.

      As for this debate, I stick by the points I made earlier. This debate is just gonna go back and forth tbh.

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    • @Squinty......Sasuke's EMS would have Itachi's pattern, but it's no where similiar lol. So how can a crow programmed to react to an equilateral triangle, react to a scalene triangle? hence Itachi's words


      @Halcyonite.....Glad to know you can reply, i will ignore your incorrect reply just as you did mine.

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    • @Jason how would a seal differntiate between Obito's SHaringan and Kakashi's Sharingan? They're both just 3 tomoe. And yet Itachi planted Amaterasu in Sasuke to only react to Obito's Sharingan. You're taking the visible pattern too seriously, it's obvious that they're identified in other ways.

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    • @Jason

      I ignored your previous reply because I simply couldn't be bothered. That's it. All your replies boiled down to regurgitating the same points in a different wording, so what's the point of me trying to get my argument across? If you want me not replying to mean that you've "won" the debate, by all means think that lol.

      Also, it's nice to see you acknowledge that I also think your previous replies were incorrect.

      @Squinty They are identified in other ways. It's just that Jason used it for one of his points but fails to bring it up for this one, just so its in favour of his argument. Shisui's eye had a distinct colour when it was active, a lightish green, so no doubt that other eyes have similar ways of identifying them.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: @Jason how would a seal differentiate between Obito's SHaringan and Kakashi's Sharingan? They're both just 3 tomoe. And yet Itachi planted Amaterasu in Sasuke to only react to Obito's Sharingan. You're taking the visible pattern too seriously, it's obvious that they're identified in other ways.

      Specific targets can be selected by the user of the seals, it's stated lol. Itachi's specific target for Koto is his eyes..

      @Halcyonite.....And yet here you are still trying to get your argument across. You couldn't just counter my points lmao

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    • If the target was Itachi's eyes, then they would have gone off as soon as they engaged in CQC

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    • Itachi looked at Naruto and tried to activate a MS jutsu(either Amaterasu as Nagato said, or Tsukuyomi) and with the attempt at using the tech it instead activated the Crow and Koto-Amatsukami. Another thing I wanted to point out is that Itachi had put the crow into Naruto right before fighting Sasuke, so it is highly likely he had set the Transcription Seal: KotoAmatsukami then therefor the last time the Crow saw Itachi at all was back at that time, until the Crow is activated by his dojutsu attempt while facing Naruto.

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    • So you're saying Itachi was able to rig a crow to activate an MS jutsu faster than Itachi believed Sasuke himself could use an MS jutsu.

      Because if it only reacted to the activation of a jutsu, you're saying that Itachi could make a crow fire the most powerful Genjutsu before Sasuke could fire Amaterasu at Naruto, even though Sasuke would have already had to have begun activation.

      In fact if it was Amaterasu, it's more likely that Sasuke would burn the crow as it came out of Naruto, if it was only set to come out when Sasuke activated his EMS.

      Does not make any sense to only rig it for when a jutsu activates; there's no reason to do that rather than just set it to his MS

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    • @Jason

      Idk what hallucinogens you've been taking, but they must be good, because I don't see anything in my previous comment that is referring to anything in my argument from before (unless you're talking about me calling you out on you changing your point about distinguishing Sharingan). Like I said, your points were just the same with different wording. If you want to think that you're right, again do so, by all means.

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    • The crow reacting to Itachi's MS would make more sense fr, but it doesn't explain how it would work on Sasuke who doesn't have the exact design only, as Itachi ,who would have no way of knowing what Sasuke's MS or EMS would look would not make sense for him to set the crow to react to just his mangekyou.....


      @Halcyonite...ok

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: The crow reacting to Itachi's MS would make more sense fr, but it doesn't explain how it would work on Sasuke who doesn't have the exact design only, as Itachi ,who would have no way of knowing what Sasuke's MS or EMS would look would not make sense for him to set the crow to react to just his mangekyou.....

      It doesn't need the exact design, and that's already been proven. Their Sharingan have identifying features beyond just the visible outward design. And sealed jutsu can be coded to react only to certain Sharingan. If it's the case with Sharingan, it's easily the case with Mangekyo, since we know all Sharingan look the same.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: It doesn't need the exact design, and that's already been proven.

      There is no precedent for the mangekyou sharingan, just sharingan...

      Their Sharingan have identifying features beyond just the visible outward design. And sealed jutsu can be coded to react only to certain Sharingan.

      The chakra color apparently, but this is only noticeable by the byakugan....Sealed jutsu can be set to activate to specific target, could be anything even to a specific time as in madara's case.

      If it's the case with Sharingan, it's easily the case with Mangekyo, since we know all Sharingan look the same.

      Visually speaking, they don't.

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    • The precedent for the Sharingan should make it clear that it works for the MS, because the MS is even more unique to each user than a regular Shraingan LOL.

      It's not just the chakra color, obviously. It's something that the eye itself can discern, not just the Byakugan. Otherwise, Itachi may have caused Sasuke to use Amaterasu on Kakashi if Sasuke happened to see Kakashi before Obito. And obviously Itachi doesn't want that.

      Uh, yeah, all Sharingan visually look the same. At least fully matured ones. What are you on about? If you meant that all MS don't visually look the same, that doesn't matter.

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    • It's clear that it's about the chakra amount and color that the MS puts off when using a Dojutsu, as according to Ao while using Koto-Amatsukami Danzo's eye was radiating with Shisui's chakra.. SO when controlled Edo-Itachi attempted to use a MS Dojutsu on Naruto it activated the Crow's Koto-Amatsukami. It was the chakra that radiated when Itachi attempted a MS Jutsu(that Nagato also commented on) that activated the Crow's Koto-Amatsukami.

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    • FlatZone wrote: It's clear that it's about the chakra amount and color that the MS puts off when using a Dojutsu, as according to Ao while using Koto-Amatsukami Danzo's eye was radiating with Shisui's chakra.. SO when controlled Edo-Itachi attempted to use a MS Dojutsu on Naruto it activated the Crow's Koto-Amatsukami. It was the chakra that radiated when Itachi attempted a MS Jutsu(that Nagato also commented on) that activated the Crow's Koto-Amatsukami.

      The crow came out to activate Koto as soon as Itachi activated his MS. So, this entire argument is rendered moot.

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    • No it didn't. Itachi's right eye which is his Amaterasu eye activates first and the crow comes out http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/mangas/Naruto/549%20-%20Itachi's%20Question/018.png

      nothing happens yet, Itachi has both eyes activated and clearly looking at the crow http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/mangas/Naruto/550%20-%20Koto%20Amatsukami/001.png

      Itachi's right eye which is his Amaterasu side starts to bleed and build chakra and pressure http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/mangas/Naruto/550%20-%20Koto%20Amatsukami/003.png

      He closes his eyes as if to use Amaterasu, bleeding and all. Nagato says so too. and as seen on the bottom row of panels Itachi's attempt at activating Amaterasu activated Koto-Amatsukami in the crow, it is that exact moment that he is "set free" from Edo Tensei's control. The crow is reacting to his MS using Amaterasu which is dojutsu, not just his MS alone. http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/mangas/Naruto/550%20-%20Koto%20Amatsukami/004.png

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    • @Squinty

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    • FlatZone wrote: .. This is different in that this was Shisui's eye and tech but inside a crow which has farrrr less chakra than Shisui did let alone a human would and only actually activated when Itachi attempted a Dojutsu tech with his eyes. Itachi has Shisui's set to activate under different albeit similar conditions.

      back to the subject at hand and to ignore irritating people who don't really know what they are talking about.

      Lol, says the user that brought up this point in the first place and continued to move the goalposts.

      All of that is speculation pal, you are literally are assuming with no basis. I'm saying there is a reference and precedent to Itachi programming jutsu to activate to the Sharingan, which ties into the crow coming out when Itachi activates his MS. @Squinty made a valid point about it not occurring during a jutsu (Amaterasu etc.), but you brushed that off.

      The precedent and the events of the manga (Itachi skirmish) are on the side of the MS activation only. If you wanna say otherwise you need more than speculation/opinions. It also doesn't help if you act all high and mighty.

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    • I clearly explained the sequence of events and linked the panels too. Itachi's attempt at Amaterasu is what triggered Koto-Amatsukami.

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    • All I see from those panels is that the crow came out of Naruto because Itachi was showing his MS. Then when it finally came all the way out, Itachi had already closed his eyes in preparation for Amaterasu (which mind you he isn't even in control of attacking) so the crow was non reactive. Then as soon as Itachi opened his eye again, the crow hit him with Koto.

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    • He already had 1 Mangekyo open and stared right at the Crows eye, nothing happened. He closes his eyes for Amaterasu and activates it while staring at the Crow and then bam the Crow activates Koto-Amatsukami. It was the MS Dojutsu that made the activation of Koto happen.

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    • If the crow only reacted to jutsu activation then it would have hits Itachi as soon as his eye started bleeding. But it didn't. There's no correlation between jutsu activation and the crow, but there is a correlation to just when Itachi opened his MS at all.

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    • LMAO NO. His eye was bleeding because he was preparing Amaterasu, it was not actually activated until that last panel as pointed out. Ala his battle with Sasuke his eyes bled and when he opened it.. THEN Amaterasu was launched.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He already had 1 Mangekyo open and stared right at the Crows eye, nothing happened. He closes his eyes for Amaterasu and activates it while staring at the Crow and then bam the Crow activates Koto-Amatsukami. It was the MS Dojutsu that made the activation of Koto happen.

      What? Ok, this is ridiculous now and by your own admission you are wrong. We've been saying that the crow activated to Itachi MS and you said no, why try and move the goalpost now again lol?

      FlatZone wrote: LMAO NO. His eye was bleeding because he was preparing Amaterasu, it was not actually activated until that last panel as pointed out. Ala his battle with Sasuke his eyes bled and when he opened it.. THEN Amaterasu was launched.

      Yet by your own admission the crow activated with Itachi's MS. That's it. It doesn't matter if there was a buildup to koto, as Itachi didn't get the chance to fire Amaterasu off, so that add-on point is moot. Lol, arguing for the sake of arguing lol.

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    • FlatZone wrote: LMAO NO. His eye was bleeding because he was preparing Amaterasu, it was not actually activated until that last panel as pointed out. Ala his battle with Sasuke his eyes bled and when he opened it.. THEN Amaterasu was launched.

      People don't bleed because they knead chakra. They bleed when a technique is hard on their bodies. Amaterasu is hard on the MS. Itachi didn't start bleeding because he just had a lot of chakra behind his eye.

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    • You can see his eye started bleeding before he even closed them if that is your argument and at that moment the Koto didn't activate but he was looking right at the crow.. so again it has to be the actual activation and release of the tech not the build up for the tech.

      "hurr durr moved the goal post" don't be upset that you're wrong. That's what happens and you'll be ok.

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    • FlatZone wrote: You can see his eye started bleeding before he even closed them if that is your argument and at that moment the Koto didn't activate but he was looking right at the crow.. so again it has to be the actual activation and release of the tech not the build up for the tech.

      "hurr durr moved the goal post" don't be upset that you're wrong. That's what happens and you'll be ok.

      Lol, project all you like. Please explain to me how I'm wrong when you admitted the crow popped out due to Itachi's MS.

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    • the crow popping out and the koto activating were clearly two seperate instances but you can't seem to grasp that lmao it's ok.

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    • Wait, why? Why would Itachi set the crow to come out reacting to Itachi's MS, but wait until an MS tech is used before using Koto? There's no reason for that. It makes mores sense for the crow to exit Naruto and use Koto as quickly as possible if it saw Itachi's MS (in Sasuke) so it would minimize the possibility of Sasuke severely hurting Naruto. There's no reason for waiting for some extra condition.

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    • @FlatZone Let me show you where you let yourself down...

      FlatZone wrote: His MS doesn't need to be activated, he said the Crow would react to HIS EYES. Don't go twisting things because it's not working in your favor Bud, I know that's what you are best at but it doesn't work with me.

      Then you said...

      FlatZone wrote: The eyes are programmed to respond to Itachi's eyes using a technique, they only responded when he attempted to use a dojutsu on Naruto,

      Trying to move the goalposts and pretending you were correct the whole time.

      Then...

      FlatZone wrote: You can see his eye started bleeding before he even closed them if that is your argument and at that moment the Koto didn't activate but he was looking right at the crow.. so again it has to be the actual activation and release of the tech not the build up for the tech.

      "hurr durr moved the goal post" don't be upset that you're wrong. That's what happens and you'll be ok.

      So you contradicted yourself lol. And then your latest post that says the same thing. So again how am I wrong? Only one wrong here as I have shown is you.

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    • I had to change a few things I said after actually checking out the animated episode and the manga chapters. You on the other hand are still wrong and can't prove it so now you are deflecting to something else "oh you moved the goal post" you know what this is about unless you are slow, which then you would get a pass. Koto DID NOT activate until Amaterasu was actually activated, the crow came out when Itachi stared at Naruto with his right Mangekyo activated.. but again let me say this so you don't forget.. Itachi's had to activate Amaterasu for the crow to activate Koto-Amatsukami. Again that is how the panels played out, otherwise the moment he stared at Naruto and the crow with his right Mangekyo active then he would have instantly been placed under Koto, which that is NOT what happened.. so again... it was his activation of Amaterasu that caused Koto to Activate. How hard is that to understand???

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    • @Flatzone you seemed to miss this so to repeat:

      Squinty97 wrote: Wait, why? Why would Itachi set the crow to come out reacting to Itachi's MS, but wait until an MS tech is used before using Koto? There's no reason for that. It makes mores sense for the crow to exit Naruto and use Koto as quickly as possible if it saw Itachi's MS (in Sasuke) so it would minimize the possibility of Sasuke severely hurting Naruto. There's no reason for waiting for some extra condition.

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    • Dude you are applying that exact reasoning to a series that does things sometimes with no reason. The way it played out is not the way you wanted it to.

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    • I already told you how the timing made sense the way I saw it.

      When in the presence of Itachi's MS, the crow exits, and will cast Koto. Being a crow, it takes a longer build-up to cast than a person. So it builds up, but Itachi closes his eyes so it doesn't cast yet. Then Itachi opened his eyes again so it cast the jutsu.

      That makes way more sense than having a two-part conditional system for no reason.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I had to change a few things I said after actually checking out the animated episode and the manga chapters. You on the other hand are still wrong and can't prove it so now you are deflecting to something else "oh you moved the goal post" you know what this is about unless you are slow, which then you would get a pass.

      LooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL

      There is undeniable proof that you were wrong and moved the goalposts yet you still claim I was wrong. Despite not actually saying how or why I was wrong lol. @Squinty already addressed your latest goal-shift, so no need to rehash.

      Furthermore, you resort to insults and attacks instead of presenting an argument. @Squinty I would like to make a formal complaint about this behavior.

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    • Condescending behavior to condescending behavior. You get what you put out bud.

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    • @FlatZone

      Come with an argument next time.

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    • I have one, you have failed to defeat it and still fail to defeat it. @ me when you actually can.

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    • @FlatZone

      I've shown you defeating yourself. Still can't say how I'm wrong?

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    • and again you ignored my later comment that explained that I changed my thoughts on it based on going back and ACTUALLY looking at the manga panels and episode related. Why are you even trying at this point?? You are literally accomplishing nothing and just being a condescending, are you hurt? lol

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    • @FlatZone Lol, I'm still waiting to hear on what I'm actually wrong about and how. You keep on saying it, yet brought no substance. You not doing yourself any favors with continuing on being hostile and bad behavior.

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    • Nobody is being hostile but you. I already explained everything with the last bunch of posts, you are pretending they don't exist and that's not a me problem that's a you problem. If you can't do anything about it then just move on because you're clearly not getting it.

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    • Do they ever come to a consensus or accept that they're wrong......?.....lol

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    • Squinty does sometimes but "Ninja of War" never does. Ever. He will be wrong and know he's wrong and still refuse to accept and acknowledge it. I even went back and looked at old posts he was in and old threads and yeah, still the same old same old with him.

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    • PS isn't tanking a Totsuka enhanced BSM TBB hence TI takes this w/ high difficulty.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Squinty does sometimes but "Ninja of War" never does. Ever. He will be wrong and know he's wrong and still refuse to accept and acknowledge it. I even went back and looked at old posts he was in and old threads and yeah, still the same old same old with him.

      Lol, if you can't say how or why I am wrong, it is a baseless accusation. Especially when I backed-up my points. I gave you so many chances yet you still fail to tell me. Look how I did it, I showed you where you were wrong. See, totally valid from me to you.

      @Jason

      Please tell me how I'm wrong, or else it's just baseless accusations. Btw didn't you say the crow only activated to Itachi's eyes and not MS like @FlatZone? Lol, that actually makes you wrong, nice one.

      FlatZone wrote: Nobody is being hostile but you. I already explained everything with the last bunch of posts, you are pretending they don't exist and that's not a me problem that's a you problem. If you can't do anything about it then just move on because you're clearly not getting it.

      I'm not the one slinging insults. I'm asking a question, which apparently upsets you. I actually acknowledged your posts, yet how does that make me wrong?

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    • You didn't back up anything. When you actually do that then you can say that.

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    • @FlatZone

      You mean how I backed-up how you were wrong about the crow reacting to Itachi's eyes only? Wrong again pal, Lol.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Yet by your own admission the crow activated with Itachi's MS. That's it. It doesn't matter if there was a buildup to koto, as Itachi didn't get the chance to fire Amaterasu off, so that add-on point is moot. Lol, arguing for the sake of arguing lol.

      ^This is my previous point that apparently you said was wrong. Let's see if you will finally address me, or more baseless accusations. You can redeem yourself here.

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    • You are using a generality to think you won, Amaterasu is launched with the MS and because of that you are saying its the MS alone. The MS pulled the Crow out, and Itachi stared right at it and nothing happened. His eye started bleeding and he closed his eyes and both started bleeding, he is building for Amaterasu(same thing from vs Sasuke) and Nagato points that out. Itachi opens his eye to launch it and that is what activates Koto-Amatsukami. I know you are trying really hard to be right when you're not, even going as far as to cling onto a generality when the details are what matters here.. but come on man. Just give it up.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Yet by your own admission the crow activated with Itachi's MS. That's it. It doesn't matter if there was a buildup to koto, as Itachi didn't get the chance to fire Amaterasu off, so that add-on point is moot. Lol, arguing for the sake of arguing lol.

      Have to post this again to drive the point home. After all the accusation, you think I'm trying hard? Lol. I haven't even tried, you kept on saying this was wrong. When there was actually nothing wrong about it.

      I'd advise you to look up what moot means as well. It's not even that I won, it's simply you who was wrong about my point. Hilarious.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Do they ever come to a consensus or accept that they're wrong......?.....lol

      A consensus means everyone generally agrees. Lol it's not only our fault that there's no consensus, it's your side of the argument as well. If you guys agreed with us, there'd be a consensus. And same goes for the other way around.

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    • Says the guys who literally says no to manga scans that proves him wrong...

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Says the guys who literally says no to manga scans that proves him wrong...

      ? The crow reacted to Itachi's MS, and the scans you provided confirmed that. I gave my scenario on why it activated in step with Itachi's eye opening, which makes more sense than having a two-step conditional activation for no reason.

      In fact, you never gave an answer to my question earlier so I'll pose it again:

      Squinty97 wrote: Wait, why? Why would Itachi set the crow to come out reacting to Itachi's MS, but wait until an MS tech is used before using Koto? There's no reason for that. It makes mores sense for the crow to exit Naruto and use Koto as quickly as possible if it saw Itachi's MS (in Sasuke) so it would minimize the possibility of Sasuke severely hurting Naruto. There's no reason for waiting for some extra condition.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: The kotoamatsukami crow was set to react to Itachi's eyes not his mangekyou lol.

      Remember this? I do and @Squinty and I already showed you why you were wrong as the manga confirms, yet you don't want to acknowledge that?

      And then...

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Says the guys who literally says no to manga scans that proves him wrong...

      That is literally you (and another user) in this thread. Since you accused me of being wrong before, I wonder if you will actually address me to explain how.

      Though my position on the "argument" that the crow popping out and the use of koto on MS Itachi tech being two instances, mainly is that it is practically irrelevant. I'm still waiting from @FlatZone to hear how that is apparently wrong lol?

      @Squinty Do you think there was a build-up to Koto, or maybe the crow was waiting for direct eye contact with Itachi?

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    • @Ninja I think it was a combination. The crow was obviously reacting to Itachi's MS. So I think that it came out due to Itachi's MS and began its build-up to Koto, but when it was ready, Itachi's eyes had closed and therefore the crow couldn't identify its target, so it waited to cast it. Then Itachi opened his eye and the crow reacted accordingly.

      So while Koto itself doesn't need eye contact, I think seeing the eye was a prerequisite for the crow itself using it

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    • Bringing up my argument again? why...this is obviously going nowhere.

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    • Squinty97
      Squinty97 removed this reply because:
      accidentally a reply to a post not quoted
      19:44, February 20, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Yeah you're right, why bring up your argument which you posted in a discussion? It's obviously not to discuss lol.

      In all seriousness, I think it was to show you where you ignored panels yourself when they proved you wrong.

      Anyways, idk where this argument is going either. The last argument @Flatzone gave me was that I shouldn't use "exact reasoning" during this discussion. So idk how far a discussion can go if that's the response lol. It's essentially saying "don't use logic here."

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    • Ok so I was ignoring this for awhile seeing as certain people refuse to see logic at all here. But I'll chime in again. I said the series itself does not use exact and perfect logical reasoning for everything and that is a fact so you trying to ATTEMPT some sherlock homes shit here isn't worth a thing. If it was the MS and the MS alone that activated the Koto-Amatsukami then the bird would have done so when Itachi looked at it before he even closed his eyes for Amaterasu. There was no insinuated build up for the crow, but there was most assuredly a buildup for Itachi's Amaterasu. So Generally yes the MS was the trigger for the crow to come out, and by extension use Koto.. but then we have to be specific and hopefully certain people can understand that. Amaterasu which is directly part of Itachi's MS since it is his right eye's Dojutsu is what caused the Koto-Amatsukami to actually activate.. as shown on panel and explained step by step. Try to spin it how you want but you're wrong. I think at this point its like trying to talk to a brick wall so I'm out.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Yeah you're right, why bring up your argument which you posted in a discussion? It's obviously not to discuss lol.

      Obviously beyond this

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    • @Flatzone and now you're making no sense. There was literally no way to know if Sasuke would have unlocked Amaterasu. Amaterasu definitely isn't the trigger, because Itachi meant for Koto to be used when it saw Itachi's MS in Sasuke's. And we know just taking Itachi's eyes doesn't grant Sasuke his MS abilities because Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi.

      Sorry, you can say I'm wrong all you want. Maybe I am wrong, but you definitely aren't right. You're interpreting the situation way more than I am. You're giving way more conditions to this than there makes sense to be, and when I point it out you're basically saying "don't try to make sense at me." Lol but if you're out then cya in another thread ig

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    • You totally read my message wrong Amaterasu is part of Itachi's right MS, he can only use it with his right MS. His right MS is what pulls the crow out, his right MS using Amaterasu is what actually activates Koto-Amatsukami. Now I am out for now. Peace.

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    • FlatZone wrote: his right MS using Amaterasu is what actually activates Koto-Amatsukami. Now I am out for now. Peace.

      Lol if this is the case then Itachi wouldn't know if Koto activated on Sasuke, what do you mean? Itachi had no way of knowing Sasuke would have Amaterasu as well. So Itachi can't have coded it to his own Amaterasu, because he intended its use to be Sasuke. Still making no sense lol

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    • If Sasuke has Itachi's right eye then Sasuke gains Itachi's ability with that right eye so Sasuke can use Amaterasu with the right eye too when he gets EMS, and Sasuke SHOULD be able to use Tsukuyomi with the left eye. There is no reason he wouldn't. You take the eyeball you get the eyeballs technique as is literally shown with every single dojutsu transfer in the series. Sasuke would have ended up with Amaterasu no matter what. Itachi knew that if Sasuke took his eyes that would be the case.

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    • @Flatzone no, Sasuke doesn't get Itachi's MS abilities from EMS. Because of the sole fact that he doesn't have Tsukuyomi.

      So no, Sasuke wouldn't end up with Amaterasu automatically, and your argument falls apart there.

      EMS is different than other dojutsu transfers. The person gets their close relative's eyes, but since they themselves have the MS, their own power is what comes through it. They get a boost in terms of no more strain, but they don't get their techs with it.

      Besides Tsukuyomi, Sasuke also doesn't have Totsuka Blade or Yata Mirror. So no, Koto can't be coded to Itachi's Amaterasu because Itachi doesn't know what Sasuke would awaken.

      And there's also the fact that there's no reason to add an unnecessary two-step conditional system to Koto when Itachi just wants Sasuke to not attack Naruto/Konoha.

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    • Sasuke wouldn't get the Totsuka Blade or the Yata Mirror regardless, Itachi added those to his own Susanoo manually and Susanoo is only awakened with the eyes, it is a product of the users brain alone hence when users didn't need eyeballs to use Susanoo. Even if he never did show Tsukuyomi how would that prove he doesn't have it?? Madara has at least 1 MS tech and he hasn't shown it ever.. though every Mangekyo user awakens at least 1 MS tech and they have a variant to it in either eye, or they awaken 2 MS techs, one in each eye. You see how your logic doesn't work here?? ALso you keep saying that, but thats your speculation only. It is shown that the Amaterasu from Itachi's right eye is what triggers Koto. Already explained. Give it up already.

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    • FlatZone wrote: It is shown that the Amaterasu from Itachi's right eye is what triggers Koto. Already explained. Give it up already.

      No, it's not, this is your interpretation only.

      You want your interpretation to be the only correct way so badly, but as soon as someone asks you a question that shows it doesn't make sense, you say "you can't use logic here."

      Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi, sorry you want him to have it so bad. He gained none of Itachi's eye techs and you're just trying to give him them for some reason. But you tend to just give characters abilities when it suits you, even when there's no evidence of it in the manga.

      Regarding your argument about Madara, the difference is Madara never once in the series needed to use any MS tech during a fight we watched him partake in. Every fight he was just chillin and throwing around huge jutsu for fun, testing his new abilities and largely considering his opponents fodder. Sasuke on the other hand had many opportunities and good reasons to even attempt Tsukuyomi, especially considering he had EMS, but never once tried it.

      You can explain it the same way all you want, but the fact is just because you believe your interpretation is correct, it doesn't make it correct.

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    • @Jason

      It's going nowhere since you sling baseless accusations, while it's been shown your credibility is lacking.

      FlatZone wrote: So Generally yes the MS was the trigger for the crow to come out, and by extension use Koto.. but then we have to be specific and hopefully certain people can understand that.

      Again, how is that practically relevant? That was my main point all along. Lol, you spent so long (baseless)accusing me of being wrong. I was actually discussing the specifics of that instance with @Squinty. A point of interest is that the crow only appears to make direct eye contact with Itachi at that last panel. You gonna acknowledge the specifics on that?

      FlatZone wrote: If Sasuke has Itachi's right eye then Sasuke gains Itachi's ability with that right eye so Sasuke can use Amaterasu with the right eye too when he gets EMS, and Sasuke SHOULD be able to use Tsukuyomi with the left eye. There is no reason he wouldn't. You take the eyeball you get the eyeballs technique as is literally shown with every single dojutsu transfer in the series. Sasuke would have ended up with Amaterasu no matter what. Itachi knew that if Sasuke took his eyes that would be the case.

      Oh. My. Gosh.

      Amazing, @Squinty caught you out again and you are doubling down on the ridiculousness. There is no evidence that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. And there was no way of Itachi knowing Sasuke would have Amaterasu. That goes against you obviously, so you're trying to change that to make you seem right?

      Listen, I don't understand how you can make assumption after assumption, speculation after speculation and opinion after opinion on your points and still think they have any credibility on actual events in the manga. An interpretation should come from the bottom-up. Not from one opinion supporting another assumption supporting more speculation.

      FlatZone wrote: Even if he never did show Tsukuyomi how would that prove he doesn't have it??...You see how your logic doesn't work here?? ALso you keep saying that, but thats your speculation only.

      That's a you problem. It's not anyone's job to prove that he doesn't have it. If you are making the point that Sasuke has it, then YOU have to prove he has it, for your point to have credibility.

      @Squinty

      Good job.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: It's going nowhere since you sling baseless accusations, while it's been shown your credibility is lacking.

      Literally you on the speed feats thread

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Literally you on the speed feats thread

      Wrong again. Another baseless accusation?

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    • No

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    • @Jason

      Come with an argument next time. More baseless accusations further prove my point, and show you off in a negative light.

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    • I always do, the rest of your sentence is you.

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    • Oi on topic now pls, everyone

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: I always do, the rest of your sentence is you.

      Proof for your statement. What argument?

      @Squinty

      I asked this a while back, Healthy Itachi meaning Part 1 Itachi? That is the only time he was practically healthy.

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    • @Ninja I got nothing on that front. Honestly I don't know. My best guess to the intent of the thread is a hypothetical Itachi that doesn't have his disease, but is still as experienced as he was. So he's got more stamina but his eyesight is blurry and close to loss.

      I mean that's what I think, idk.

      I'd say the closest idea we have of healthy Itachi is Edo Itachi, but we'd just have to guess what his limit is.

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    • @War...not interested, that would just recreate whatever i'd bring up.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: @War...not interested, that would just recreate whatever i'd bring up.

      Well, since you're not interested in proof or discussion, ok.

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    • A FANDOM user
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