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  • NO HOLDS BARRED DEATHMATCH

    - Madara does NOT have Kurama

    - Itachi is completely healthy

    Who wins?

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    • If itachi chooses to use Izanagi I believe the fight is over. Madara would win this though, His Base was scaling to Prime Hashirama base. And ems itachi is not taking Hashirama base

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    • I don't think that's true. Prime Hashirama beat Madara with the full nine-tails. And I feel like Madara would use Izanami in response to the Izanagi.

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    • Itachi doesn't have Izanagi in his arsenal, and Madara doesn't have Izanami in his arsenal.

      @Ralio, Madara was near his equal as they continued to fight through the years, and Madara didn't always have control of the Nine Tails. They just got to the point where even adding the Nine Tails was not that significant compared to their own might.

      Anyways, the closest thing we have to healthy EMS Itachi is Edo Itachi. Because both don't suffer MS drawbacks and both have more chakra stamina. Really the only difference between these two versions of Itachi is that Itachi may have a higher chakra pool to push Susanoo to greater forms if he was EMS without sickness, but that's speculation at best.

      But yeah, "healthy Itachi" means almost nothing lol, we don't know what that is.

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    • We also need to take into accout that Madaras EMS abilities were never Shown in the Manga or Anime, expect for his time manipulation abilites in 1 of the storm games but I dont know if we should go with this because it does come from a video game and is not 100% cannon.

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    • Madara was not near his equal, Hashirama literally held back as to not kill him every single time. When Hashirama finally gets serious it is only because he is forced to and that was at the place that would become VotE. Hashirama fought not only Madara but Kurama too and he beat them both. Madara wasn't Hashirama's level in life, he was just close enough to be able to fight him.

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    • Does EMS Madara have Hashirama's cells?

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    • EMS Madara didn't have Hashirama cells until after his fight with Hashirama at VotE so that shouldn't really be included anyway

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    • Even with EMS, I wouldn't put Itachi at Madara's level. However, with Totsuka and Yata, those are his saving's grace that keep him in it. Too bad, there's too much controversy on what they can and can't do.WHat does Op say about them? And does Madara have Kurama at his beck and call? These are pretty big factors.

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    • Itachi wins. Even with MS

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: Itachi wins. Even with MS

      Lol. Such a great argument. MS Itachi? The same MS Itachi who was on the verge of death? The same MS Itachi who could barely handle a few MS Abilities before he needed time to charge? We all know it was said Izuna, Madara, and Tobirama were about equals before Madara got EMS. Itachi with MS and sick as a dog would never even come close to his predecessors. A guy who brought so much fear that the nations united to fight a war based on his name alone vs a guy who was just in a bingo book.

      Don't get me wrong, Itachi is incredibly strong, but he's not titan level like Hashirama and Madara. He's more on the level of Minato and Tobirama if he's healthy and /maybe/ has EMS.

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    • Senjutsu Sage
      Senjutsu Sage removed this reply because:
      FCK I gotta explain myself for
      01:24, January 31, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • JamesSenpai wrote: Even with EMS, I wouldn't put Itachi at Madara's level. However, with Totsuka and Yata, those are his saving's grace that keep him in it. Too bad, there's too much controversy on what they can and can't do.WHat does Op say about them? And does Madara have Kurama at his beck and call? These are pretty big factors.

      I think Itachi takes thi one because he would be able to do everything that Madara can do but with the added advantage of Tsukuyomi (This probably would hold back Madara for long beause of his prowess with the Sharingan, but he would be dazed as he wouldn't understand it for a minute), Amaterasu, Yasaka Magatama (Granted, Madara has them too, but it serves as a counter), and Totsuka Blade. And I said in the post that Madara doesn't have Kurama, as it would be unfair. That's an obvious win for Madara.

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    • If the fight gets drawn out, Madara will win. Madara has insane stamina and chakra reserves. Madara can literally use complete body susanoo from the start, which Itachi has no answer to. Though due to madara's over confidence, he could get hit by totsuka blade.

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    • Kisame has more chakra than Madara and most other people, yet he outright makes it clear Itachi is stronger than him to the point he admits himself that he may not be able to beat Jiraiya but thinks Itachi should be able to. So having more chakra than Itachi doesn't give you some golden ticket to a Win. EMS Madara without Kurama and without Hashirama Cells is what EMS Itachi is fighting, Itachi is has no disease and therefor is perfectly healthy here and has EMS so perfect eyesight and no dojutsu strain. Madara is not faster than Itachi, Madara is not going to outdo Itachi in taijutsu and at best would tie him, Madara only used Complete Body Susanoo with Kurama's help, and Sasuke only used Complete Body Susanoo with Kurama's help(chakra), but if we are using anime only stuff then sure Madara has Complete Body Susanoo here, which means we can give Itachi his novel feats too which include Chakra enhanced Taijutsu like Sakura and his Lethal Usage of Tsukuyomi to go along with it. If the fight drags out too long Itachi will lose due to having lower stamina than Madara which is Madara's only true advantage here. But Itachi KNOWS his own weaknesses and he isn't blind, he can see the Sharingan and he also isn't stupid as he knows all about Madara and his EMS and what he looks like. This fight comes down to 2 things. Mind you Madara having absorbing Abilities was only after he got the Rinnegan as Hashirama was shocked he could absorb a ninjutsu(Amaterasu). So EMS Madara cannot absorb chakra and ninjutsu. Therefor Itachi has Amaterasu and SoT to his full advantage. This fight comes down to how long it lasts and if Itachi lands either Amaterasu or SoT before he runs out of chakra.

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    • Whoa whoa whoa lol.

      Kisame has more chakra, but specifically excels at fighting chakra heavy users. Madara is not specialized in this way, and just is massively skilled in most areas with lots of reserves to boot.

      Madara not being faster than Itachi is speculation, whether you're for or against it. It's not some ironclad fact.

      Madara not outdoing Itachi in Taijutsu is also speculation, whether you're for or against it.

      If we include Madara's Perfect Susanoo, that does not mean we automatically consider Itachi's novel feats because the anime and novels are on different levels of canon.

      I agree on the last bit though. It mainly depends on how long it'll last. But that's one of the reasons this whole "healthy Itachi" thing annoys me. We have no idea what his reserves would be like, nor his acual chakra levels, and the closest we have as a baseline is Itachi as an Edo.

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    • Then the whole thread is pointless by that logic.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Then the whole thread is pointless by that logic.

      It is

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    • Ok so if that is the logic you two are going by then don't comment. Others will comment anyway. I say Itachi's chakra levels would be like Sasuke's after he lost Orochimaru but before he got the EMS, no outside interferrance and no outside boosts.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Ok so if that is the logic you two are going by then don't comment. Others will comment anyway. I say Itachi's chakra levels would be like Sasuke's after he lost Orochimaru but before he got the EMS, no outside interferrance and no outside boosts.

      I was simply addressing your point and i can do whatever I please as long as it's within the forum guidelines. This thread is pointless for two reasons:

      • We have not seen a healthy Itachi fight so we don't know his full capabilities. Healthy Itachi is just as quantifiable as Prime Hiruzen. Though, you can make some argument how powerful they are, it requires heavy speculation
      • EMS Itachi never existed. Making any argument on how powerful he is goes beyond speculation, it's fan-fiction.
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    • No I'll still comment lol. Just cus I think the premise is flawed doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about arguments presented.

      Sasuke is a transmigrant, why would Itachi have the same chakra levels as him?

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    • Sasuke didn't start having larger chakra levels until he got the EMS and being a transmigrant does not equate to having large quantities of chakra, it only has been shown to affect the strength of the users chakra.

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    • " I say Itachi's chakra levels would be like Sasuke's after he lost Orochimaru but before he got the EMS, no outside interferrance and no outside boosts."

      I absolutely don't want to believe that you believe this. I mean yeah Madara can't beat Itachi but. You really feel this way about Itachi's reserves?

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    • Itachi's reserves wouldn't be as high as EMS Sasuke's, he just doesn't have that natural reserves like that. I would put Itachi's reserves at MS Sasuke's when Itachi gets the EMS.

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    • So you're saying that healthy Itachi with EMS would have the same stamina as Sasuke with MS? So he could only use his techniques a few more times than Sasuke could before exhaustion hit (with Sasuke having less only because of added strain from MS).

      If that's what you're saying, that seems reasonable imo

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    • There would be next to no strain at all thanks to EMS.

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    • Yeah but I know. But I don't see Itachi using his EMS more than Sasuke used his MS strictly because of chakra. That's why I used the word "stamina." Basically I'd see Itachi being able to use his EMS only a few more times than MS Sasuke, because although he wouldn't feel the strain of using MS, the techs still use up chakra.

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    • Sure they do, but the EMS seems to help to refine dojutsu usage too as Sasuke used more MS techs after getting the EMS and was letting them off left and right, showing that it does more than just remove strain from the techs, it seems to refine the techs too.

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    • By your own words you said Sasuke's chakra levels before he got EMS. Meaning you think he gained chakra after EMS. Sasuke started shooting off techs left and right because he didn't have strain and he also had more chakra.

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    • Itachi Uchiha in absolutely no way has low chakra reserves. Itachi Uchiha in every way has a little less chakra than a Raikage.

      1. Suffering a little MS strain...... In fact (I know the Sasuke fight is our reference here, which in itself is an incredible feat on part of Itachi). The only things in that fight that seriously made Itachi suffer was Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi (Which has never happened before in his life. Never expected it) and sadly, his sickness. He died because of his sickness.

      2. You absolutely cannot tell me or try to convince me, that a man with chakra as low as you claim it to be can abuse Tsukuyomi (Used it for a lengthy period of time. He also, in number, used it twice, because their shuriken brawl apparently didn't happen under Tsukuyomi). Keeping in mind that Tsukuyomi is chakra taxing (My below point exalts this one)

      3. Itachi says in part 1 to Kisame, or to himself whatever, that using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu one after the other in a single confrontation taxes him a great deal. He then demonstrates in this fight the exact opposite of what he said, not dieing on the spot after putting the Susanoo up to protect himself from Kirin, or even better yet, using Amaterasu a SECOND time, CONTINUOUSLY (Hunting Sasuke with it. After previously coating it in one of his TWO pulled off great fireball techniques respectively). Considering your thoughts and what he said. These are moments where he should have been dead.

      4. Itachi after kirin manifests the Susanoo AGAIN. And in his sickness and blindness, MAINTAINS, the Susanoo, till death. Fighting off and sealing Orochimaru prior, etc etc

      5. The last and most considerable point. You think Itachi went and fought Sasuke days after he joined the Akatsuki? Days after he left Sasuke? Rethorical question. Obviously no. Itachi for years has had and has been using the MS, and incurred a sickness in the midst of those years. Itachi fought Sasuke in what we can call a used up or withered state. And yet.... Man you get it it. Incredible feat.

      6. Itachi in no way has low chakra reserves.

      7. The novel

      The end... Yet:

      "I say Itachi's chakra levels would be like Sasuke's after he lost Orochimaru but before he got the EMS, no outside interferrance and no outside boosts."

      Cursee mark Sasuke ran out of chakra before sick Itachi

      "Itachi's reserves wouldn't be as high as EMS Sasuke's, he just doesn't have that natural reserves like that. I would put Itachi's reserves at MS Sasuke's when Itachi gets the EMS."

      No dude. Noooo

      "So you're saying that healthy Itachi with EMS would have the same stamina as Sasuke with MS? So he could only use his techniques a few more times than Sasuke could before exhaustion hit (with Sasuke having less only because of added strain from MS). If that's what you're saying, that seems reasonable imo"

      Noooooooooo

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    • @Senjutsu Sage Raikages have chakra comparable to Tailed Beasts, Itachi has nowhere near that.

      1. His MS strain literally limits him to using MS only a few times before needing rest, and a few more times before meeting death.

      2. He has never once in his entire life abused Tsukuyomi. He's used it several times throughout his life, but that's not a feat for his chakra levels because he just recharges during the years between uses) an actual feat of chakra stamina would be if he used it several times in the same battle.

      3. No, he doesn't contradict himself. After using Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, Itachi noted himself to be too tired to fight Jiraiya. That doesn't mean that he will die after the next usage, that means he's much too far from maximum capacity to properly fight someone like Jiraiya, especially since Jiraiya was operating relatively fresh. He doesn't contradict this during his fight with Sasuke; he uses 3 MS techs. Then goes blind when he whips up Susanoo. Then dies. That's completely normal and doesn't indicate anywhere near Raikage level. Keep in mind a Perfect Susanoo is on the level of a Tailed Beast. Itachi is way below that.

      4. Maintaining Susanoo til death isn't impressive since he maintained it for like what, 5 minutes then keeled over? I mean kudos to the guy for fighting til the end to get Orochimaru, but he already was trying to die in that fight, so obviously he'd be using his Susanoo past what his normal limits are.

      5. Itachi very rearely uses the MS. This is demonstrated by his eyesight. His eyes are only very blurry by the time he fought Sasuke. COmpare this to Sasuke, who used his MS extensively in on two different days (vs Bee and in the Five Kage Summit) and his eyesight was already very blurry. That means over the course of the years since he got the MS, he only used his MS a total amount of times similar to te total amount of times that Sasuke used his within the span of like, a month at most.

      7. Novel feats don't supersede manga or even anime.

      Curse Mark Sasuke didn't fight as smart as Itachi, and also had touse the one Body Replacement tech that used up a large portion of his chakra as well, as noted by Itachi.

      Yeah, Itachi has nowhere near Raikage level chakra. His MS limits per day are similar to the non Uchiha Kakashi. Even Kakashi is noted to have more chakra than Itachi per the databooks (accounting for sickness. Believing that Itachi would somehow have more chakra than Sasuke, who already has larger than average reserves and is a good benchmark for where his brother would be at without sickness, is ridiculous lol

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    • @Squinty

      Word.

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    • @Squinty I'm pretty sure Itachi's limited to 3 uses a day. Could be wrong though. I just heard it from somewhere.

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    • If Itachi is perfectly fine physically I don't see how the Totsuka + Yata TT doesn't instantly mess up the opposition's probability of winning.

      Madara bypassing Tsukoyomi is an illogical premise as well, as we've never seen an 100% ^^ illusion.

      Mid-high difficulty probably.

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    • A FANDOM user
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