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  • This is Kazekage Gaara vs part 2 Itachi. Both characters are as they were in part 2 just before Sasuke vs Itachi. Fair fights, no cop-outs and discussions only.

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    • You should add whether or not Itachi has the crow, or is an edo or is sick or is not sick or whatever. You should also specify whether Gaara has Shikaku helping him like at the end of the 4th War.

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    • Edited.

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    • Seems like a good fight. Gaara'a sand is a nice counter for Amaterasu, and in a lot of cases a good counter for Tsukuyomi too. And Gaara has much better stamina overall.

      One question I'd ask is if Gaara's Third Eye is susceptible to ocular Genjutsu? I know Gaara sees out of it, but it means Itachi is not making eye contact with Gaara, he's making eye contact with a jutsu and not Gaara himself. Idk, I could see that argument going both ways.

      His Shurikenjutsu is hard countered by Gaara's automatic defense.

      Idk, the way I'd see Itachi winning is if he closed the gap and engaged in Taijutsu. If he can get through Gaara's sand (he's fast enough to get through automatic defense, but idk the feats for Gaara's concious sand attacks at this point), then he could overwhelm him in Taijutsu and make the opportunity for a Genjutsu, which would probably win the fight for Itachi.

      The way I see Gaara winning is uses his absolute defense and attacks by using his Third Eye, assuming it's not susceptible to Ocular Genjutsu. Or if his sand is fast enough to keep Itachi at bay while weaving sand in front of himself to keep Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi off of him.

      I can see this battle going either way, but I lean more on Itachi's side.

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    • The Gaara we saw before Sasuke vs Itachi was the one who fought Deidara...so imma say Itachi wins this one.

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    • Squinty97 wrote:

      One question I'd ask is if Gaara's Third Eye is susceptible to ocular Genjutsu? I know Gaara sees out of it, but it means Itachi is not making eye contact with Gaara, he's making eye contact with a jutsu and not Gaara himself. Idk, I could see that argument going both ways.

      Yeah, was thinking a bit about that. I'd lean towards not susceptible, simply because it's not direct and there is a whole remote jutsu that Gaara uses. But I'd like to explore both cases.

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    • The Third Eye technique is connected to the users optic nerve via chakra, visual genjutsu is lands through the chakra connection through the eyes to the optic nerve, so genjutsu should definitely work on it.

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    • @Flatzone but that's the thing, when does the jutsu activate? Since the jutsu is supposed to work on eyecontact, it seems like it should just activate when it hits the Third Eye, instead of running through another chakra line to the user. So it would end up activating on the eye, before reaching Gaara.

      I mean I could see it go either way though. Gaara still has other options, like clouds of sand, to obscure Itachi's vision. And just diving into Gaara's cloud of sand is not something Itachi could do and be unscathed.

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    • What's stopping the match from going the same way as Itachi vs Deidara

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    • Gaara still has other options, like clouds of sand, to obscure Itachi's vision. And just diving into Gaara's cloud of sand is not something Itachi could do and be unscathed.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: What's stopping the match from going the same way as Itachi vs Deidara

      Gaara doesn't use explosive clay? And besides as Kazekage Gaara is well informed about Itachi and the sharingan.

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    • Why is this even a debate? Gaara has no clue what Tsukuyomi is. Literally- Itachi exists, Gaara shows up, makes eye contact, game over, He has no way to counter any genjutsu that Itachi pulls out and DEFINITELY no way to get past his Susanoo.

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    • Created-Sleezes wrote: Gaara has no clue what Tsukuyomi is. Literally- Itachi exists, Gaara shows up, makes eye contact, game over, He has no way to counter any genjutsu that Itachi pulls out and DEFINITELY no way to get past his Susanoo.

      Don't be too sure...

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      And besides as Kazekage Gaara is well informed about Itachi and the sharingan.

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    • Gaara has had no contact with Itachi though? He would know that he is a Genjutsu user and Nothing about Tsukuyomi. Even then, it's harder to keep eye contact then most people think. I will say, the sand is an Instant negate of Amaterasu.

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    • @Created-Sleezes Even knowing about Genjutsu is enough because he will immediately cover Itachi's line of vision to Gaara's eyes with sand.

      Also regarding your earlier statement that Gaara can't do anything to Susanoo, he could just pull Itachi out of there with his sand, like he did to Madara

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    • Created-Sleezes wrote: Gaara has had no contact with Itachi though? He would know that he is a Genjutsu user and Nothing about Tsukuyomi. Even then, it's harder to keep eye contact then most people think. I will say, the sand is an Instant negate of Amaterasu.

      Please check the DP. As an ally of the leaf, the sand village and by extension it's Kazekage has all the info they have of the Akatsuki. Which includes information of Itachi's jutsu, including Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: @Created-Sleezes Even knowing about Genjutsu is enough because he will immediately cover Itachi's line of vision to Gaara's eyes with sand.

      Also regarding your earlier statement that Gaara can't do anything to Susanoo, he could just pull Itachi out of there with his sand, like he did to Madara

      If that is the case, Itachi would analyze his opponent like the strategic thinker he is. Water style would Instantly mess Gaara's sand up, making it damp

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Gaara doesn't use explosive clay? And besides as Kazekage Gaara is well informed about Itachi and the sharingan.

      Was referring to the genjutsu bit. Gaara still has to look at who he'll be fighting.

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    • Itachi has plenty water styles to use, oil and water both work on Gaara's sand. Itachi is a genius so figuring Gaara out won't be hard for him.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      Was referring to the genjutsu bit. Gaara still has to look at who he'll be fighting.

      Deidara saw Itachi first before Itachi used his Sharingan so there is that precedent.

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    • @Created Sleezes don't kudos your own posts, it's against forum policy

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    • Itachi wasn't going to fight Deidara at first and that's why, he had no reason to Genjutsu Deidara yet.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Itachi wasn't going to fight Deidara at first and that's why, he had no reason to Genjutsu Deidara yet.

      Well, Itachi and Kisame accompanied Sasori for a reason, and it's safe to say it wasn't sightseeing. Also, didn't Itachi initiate the skirmish? Provoking Deidara?

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    • Only once Deidara said he wouldn't join Akatsuki, then Itachi proposed they fight and if Deidara loses then he joins. That was when Itachi wanted to fight him. Sasori brought them for just in case reasons.

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    • Yeah, in case Deidara was hostile. Itachi proposed the fight, and he didn't have the sharingan active.

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    • That was one of the rare cases where Itachi has his Sharingan turned off besides the time he first met Kisame. Another thing I noticed is that the first explosive clay attack was real and blew a whole in the wall with Itachi at the wall meaning somehow Itachi tanked that explosion since it apparently put him outside for him to stand in the whole and glare down at Deidara.

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    • Well, it certainly is important, considering it was against a non-leaf shinobi in a hostile situation. Itachi avoided the range of Deidara's explosion, he didn't tank the explosion.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      Was referring to the genjutsu bit. Gaara still has to look at who he'll be fighting.

      Deidara saw Itachi first before Itachi used his Sharingan so there is that precedent.

      And the amount of precedent that shows Itachi having an active sharingan in or out a fight outnumbers that one. Also, deactivating the sharingan would actually encourage the opponent to say meh it's ok to stare, then you suddenly activate it and gg.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      And the amount of precedent that shows Itachi having an active sharingan in or out a fight outnumbers that one. Also, deactivating the sharingan would actually encourage the opponent to say meh it's ok to stare, then you suddenly activate it and gg.

      You mean two? Hmm...if you are actively avoiding the sharingan why would you need to look in Itachi's eyes?

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    • What are the two times you're referring to?.....because it's not activated...

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    • You still wouldn't wanna look at his eyes lol, what?

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    • @Jason

      Itachi meeting Deidara and Kisame instances. Lol, Itachi activating and deactivating his Sharingan plays no part in avoiding eye-contact with him.

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    • Avoiding eye contact is literally common knowledge with the Sharingan and how many times did that actually help against Itachi? Itachi is an expert at forcing eye contact. He literally knows these things already so acting like Gaara suddenly remembering not to look in his eyes(which he clearly should know from the beginning lls) would change anything. Itachi will catch Gaara and that will be it. He will have now way to get out of the Genjutsu and will be killed. Itachi's too smart and too calculated to not be able to catch somebody in Genjutsu. He caught B who is a perfect Jinchuriki and stronger than Gaara and KNEW not to look into his eyes but Itachi still forced it to happen. This battle is a matter of time until Itachi forces it to happen.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Jason Itachi meeting Deidara and Kisame instances. Lol, Itachi activating and deactivating his Sharingan plays no part in avoiding eye-contact with him.

      Point still stands. those instances are outnumbered by the amount of time he appears with an active sharingan, either works/.....so gaara would still avoid eye contact with Itachi with a deactivated sharingan, what's the purpose of that? it's harder to avoid eye contact than you think, which is why asuma and kurenai was asked to just close their eyes.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      Point still stands. those instances are outnumbered by the amount of time he appears with an active sharingan, either works/.....so gaara would still avoid eye contact with Itachi with a deactivated sharingan, what's the purpose of that? it's harder to avoid eye contact than you think, which is why asuma and kurenai was asked to just close their eyes.

      Well, the point is that Gaara will have the opportunity to see that it is Itachi and proceed to fight accordingly while avoiding eye-contact. You still don't see why avoiding eye contact is advantageous?

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    • Yeah so advantageous that people still were forced into eye contact by Itachi, that tactic isn't as almighty as you are trying to make it seem.

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    • I mean, not everyone has the advantage of a third eye acting as a relay point and not everyone has the advantage of being able to change the environment as they see fit. Besides, considering their difference in stamina, Itachi is on the clock and Gaara is not. Besides, I feel like making a cloud of sand and whirling it around at Itachi's face would make it hard for him to keep his eyes open lol.

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    • Then Third Eye will just work as a shortcut to Gaara's optic nerve. Gaara would be smart not to use it.

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    • You haven't replied to my counter reasoning to that, so I'll assume you missed it. Here it is.

      "@Flatzone but that's the thing, when does the jutsu activate? Since the jutsu is supposed to work on eyecontact, it seems like it should just activate when it hits the Third Eye, instead of running through another chakra line to the user. So it would end up activating on the eye, before reaching Gaara.

      I mean I could see it go either way though. Gaara still has other options, like clouds of sand, to obscure Itachi's vision. And just diving into Gaara's cloud of sand is not something Itachi could do and be unscathed."

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    • Activating on the Third Eye is the same as activating on the users own eyes, all 3 are connected to the optic nerve and genjutsu is done through chakra. I highly doubt Gaara would simply throw sand in somebodies eyes, he had the chance to do that against other dojutsu users and every single time he never even attempted it. Itachi would never just jump into Gaara's sand or let it get on him. That's extremely uncharacteristic of Itachi.

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    • No it's not. 2 eyes are connected to the optic nerve, and the other is an artificial eye that supplies information via chakra. However, if the jutsu activates as soon as it contacts the eye (as in, eye contact), then a Genjutsu will activate and try to manipulate a victim's chakra when on the third eye, but there's no chakra there to manipulate. And if Itachi could manipulate Genjutsu to go through strings of chakra, then he could've gotten Kakashi when he Genjutsu'd his clone, since Tobirama has noted that Shadow Clones are all connected by strands of chakra.

      Gaara could throw sand at Itachi's entire body and hold him the same way he held Madara. And besides, he obviously knows how to block line of sight when he sees jutsu activation, since he did that against Sasuke. He's very fast.

      I'll restate that I think Itachi would take it after a hard fight. But this is mainly due to portrayal of the characters. Gaara is a hard opponent for Itachi, with his large scale terrain altering long-range attacks. Personally I think Itachi could outsmart Gaara with enough subterfuge (that he's obviously capable of pulling off), but time isn't on his side and Gaara has counters to most of his abilities if Itachi doesn't outsmart him in time. I do think he could outsmart him though. I just think he wouldn't walk away unscathed.

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    • @Squinty97

      You said the "third eye counter to genjutsu" far better than I ever could lol. I'm curious to hear how you would see Itachi outsmarting Gaara. From Gaara's fighting style and from the series we've seen Gaara get overpowered or forced to protect others and not himself, but rarely or not even outsmarted.

      Not that I think Gaara can't be outsmarted, just that it is not particular to his character.

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    • @Ninja I try ^-^

      That's true. I suppose I can try to breakdown the fight and see where that goes. I can't off the top of my head say how one would outsmart the other, because their abilities are so different.

      So, 10 meters start. Gaara, knowing that Itachi operates a lot of his jutsu via eye contact, goes on the offense and sends sand to try to immobilize him. At the same time, he forms his Third Eye to keep tabs on Itachi so it's harder for Itachi to feint with a Bunshin.

      Itachi dodges the sand and goes on the defensive. He fires off Phoenix Flame jutsu at Gaara, who immediately defends and looks into his Third Eye, just in time to see a kunai fly into is, dispelling it. Gaara launches more sand attacks and forms a clone himself.

      Itachi continues to maneuver around the sand, then throws several kunai out in all directions. The kunai ricochet off each other. Gaara blocks most but the unorthodox paths manage to land a a few cuts on him.

      Gaara immediately launches a widespread tsunami style attack in an attempt to catch him. Itachi is immobilized and Gaara begins to seal him, only for Itachi to burst into crows, having been a clone since Gaara's Third Eye was destroyed. Surprised, Gaara whips around and finds himself looking into Itachi's eyes.

      However, unbeknownst to Itachi, this is also a clone and Itachi uses Tsukuyomi on him. The clone crumbles and Itachi is on the defensive again as the real Gaara reveals himself.

      Itachi, not wanting to waste anymore chakra, begins a Shuriken barrage. Gaara, recognizing that Itachi can ricochet the Shuriken to bypass his defense, forms his orb to defend on all sides. His third eye reappears in time to watch Itachi's eye begin to bleed.

      Gaara immediately spreads his shield farther from himself, but Itachi was fast enough to graze through the shield and tag Gaara lightly with Amaterasu. Luckily for Gaara, he had is sand armour on and quickly removed it. Gaara realizes Itachi had given him an advantage; his sand now had Amaterasu on it as a means of offense. His understanding of Amaterasu was that it burned for 7 days and 7 nights, so it wouldn't eventually go out; he had eternally burning sand to attack with.

      Itachi recognizes this and knows he could put the flames out but doesn't. Instead he activates Susanoo, while Gaara spreads the flames to the rest of his sand. Gaara begins to attack.

      Itachi defends with the Yata mirror and attacks with Yasaka Magatama. Gaara defends, and strikes back. Itachi sttempts Totsuka, but upon drawing the blade, Gaara prepared his absolute shield, which barely manages to block stop the blade in time.

      Itachi's Susanoo is eventually caught in Amaterasu. Knowing he'd burn in there unless he extinguished it, Itachi deactivates Susanoo, exhausted.

      Gaare prepares a spear of Amaterasu sand, but right before he strikes, he notices that the spear of sand is nearly all of his sand. He looks around at the environment, and there's Amaterasu scattered on the landscape. He watches as his own spear eventually falls, creating a spear-shaped burning section of the ground.

      Itachi appears before him and Gaara realizes his mistake; Amaterasu burned for 7 days and 7 nights, but it still burned. If Amaterasu ate through his sand, then Gaara could no longer control the fire via his sand, because there was no sand. Itachi providing Susanoo as his ultimate weapon, a large target to be attacked, made Gaara continue to shape his sand in different ways. This caused the fire to find more surface area to burn more quickly. Until eventually, Gaara had hardly anything left to manipulate.

      With Gaara having nothing to defend himself, Itachi strikes him down. Itachi is left blind from his MS usage, but he has won the fight.

      That's my scenario of Itachi winning. It was honestly hard to think up but I think that helped make it a tad more clever feeling lol. I can see more obvious ways for Gaara to win, but based on how the two characters were written and portrayed, I think Itachi would win in the the series if they ever fought.

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    • @Squinty

      Thanks for the rundown. Lol, never even thought of Gaara using Amaterasu on his sand as a weapon.

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    • @Ninja no prob. Yeah I thought it'd be pretty cool if Gaara used them as offense, but remembered that because sand shifts all the time, it would constantly expose more surface area to burn. Also there's the whole thing where I had Gaara purposely coat more of his sand in it lol.

      I really only based this around Itachi being a long-term manipulator. Truth be told he doesn't often outsmart people in fights. He just pulls out a jutsu that we've never seen before and wins that way usually.

      Against Kakashi? First overpowers him in combat then uses Tsukuyomi, a never before seen Genjutsu capable of even breaking Kakashi of the Sharingan.

      Against Kakashi and Chiyo and Team 7? 30% clone with regular durability, never before seen.

      Against Sasuke? Susanoo, a never before seen OP jutsu.

      Against Nagato's Chibaku Tensei? Yasaka Magatama, never before seen.

      Against Kabuto? Izanami, a never before seen counter to Izanagi that's specifically tailored to force users to take an introverted look at their actions, which just so happens to be perfect to use on Kabuto.

      Izanami is a stupid jutsu too. So Izanagi will cause your Sharingan to be blind forever. But apparently enough Uchiha were just giving their eyeballs to the point where other Uchiha were like "no, we have to punish them and stop them from using this." That in itself makes no sense because how are the Uchiha doing it so much that it warrants punishment? Every Uchiha can only do it twice max lol.

      But their solution is dumb too. "Let's make this other jutsu that makes them choose a different path, but also it makes the user's eye blind as well." Lol alrighty.

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    • @Squinty

      I understand yeah. Users often mistake ability for intelligence. There was a thread I made a long time ago discussing intelligence in Naruto, and this point was brought up a few times. Sure Itachi can use his abilities how he wants to, but just because he uses a hidden jutsu doesn't by default make him smart.

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    • You two sound so butthurt lmao. That logic can be applied to a majority of characters, Jiraiya can use sound genjutsu? never seen that, he can use sage mode? never seen that, he can hide in people's shadows? never seen that, woah woah woah Jiraiya can use barrier ninjutsu? never seen that, Oh my god no way Jiraiya can summon a frog's stomach? never seen that does the frog die or where does the stomach come from?!. I can go on but meh.The origins of Itachi's techs were explained but you were just too busy preparing to be butthurt at this moment instead of paying attention.

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    • Sound Genjutsu? Yes we've seen sound Genjutsu before from Tayuya and that one Sound Genin who faced Shikamaru.

      Hiding in people's shadows? True, we've never seen that before but considering Shinobi profession, it doesn't seen too far outta left field, especially since shadow manipulation has been established.

      Barrier jutsu has been seen with Konoha's barrier.

      Considering he can summon the toad it doesn't seem weird that he can summon its stomach.

      Lol all of what you listed made sense in the story, and usually added off of previously established things.

      Nothing built up to a chakra avatar born from eyeballs. The backstory of Izanami, as I've stated, made no sense. The 30% clone actually went against established rules of clone jutsu.

      An argument can be made for Tsukuyomi making sense, since it was done to show the difference between a borrower of the Sharingan vs the real deal. Still came out of left field though, breaking the previously established rules of "Sharingan can see through Genjutsu."

      Just cus you love his feats so much doesn't mean that most of them weren't just plot and they didn't come out of nowhere lol. Seems like the only one offended is you.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: You two sound so butthurt lmao. That logic can be applied to a majority of characters, Jiraiya can use sound genjutsu? never seen that, he can use sage mode? never seen that, he can hide in people's shadows? never seen that, woah woah woah Jiraiya can use barrier ninjutsu? never seen that, Oh my god no way Jiraiya can summon a frog's stomach? never seen that does the frog die or where does the stomach come from?!. I can go on but meh.The origins of Itachi's techs were explained but you were just too busy preparing to be butthurt at this moment instead of paying attention.

      Totally missed the point I was making lol.

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    • Amaterasu rapes before he can even blink. There's an implicited disparity between Amaterasu employed by Sasuke/Itachi.

      We see the latter's flames incinerate The Cerberus within 4-8 sec, while the latter failed to bypass Ei's RnY employing a superior variant, Kagūtsūchi Enton.

      Pretty telling.

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    • @Kyfie

      Incinerate cerberus? Uhm...as far as I recall, only the heads of the dogs were engulfed in Amaterasu and then the summoning ended. Is Amaterasu faster for Itachi in your opinion?

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