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  • Knowledge: Tobi has full knowledge about Itachi's MS jutsus and Itachi has full knowledge about Tobi's MS jutsus. Conditions: This is one Mangekyou Tobi and Healthy Itachi. Healthy Itachi means roughly the Stamina and speed as Edo Itachi and the damage to the eyes is the same as part 1.

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    • @Brainbrand what is your baseline for Healthy Itachi?

      Does he have double or triple his reserves than in his fight against Sasuke? And how much faster is he than normal?

      Also, what is his prowess with his MS? If he's very good with his MS, then that means he's most likely close to blindness from his experience using it. If his MS have no blindness, that means he's an amateur with his MS at this point because he never woulda used it yet.

      Unless you're using more of a composite Itachi with fresh eyes but keeping his experience with his MS (which might make it more fair against Tobi who doesn't suffer from MS backlash that we've seen).

      In any case, even against sick Itachi (the one vs Sasuke), this is a very even fight imo. I think it's even specifically because of the knowledge bit. Obito's abilities have large advantage when they're unknown, so having them known tilts it more in Itachi's favor.

      Obito has stamina and he's certainly got a lot of skill too. And Itachi can't touch him for the most part, especially when Obito is also looking out for Tsukuyomi.

      With sick Itachi, I'd say Obito wins a hard fight with his stamina and overall just having more options for countering Itachi. Itachi wouldn't be able to keep up after too long of a fight.

      With healthy Itachi, that depends on your parameters. I think Itachi could outsmart him, he'd just need more time and more chakra than he has while sick.

      So, what's your version of Healthy Itachi?

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    • Healthy Itachi in my eyes, is the same as Edo Itachi when it comes to stamina and speed. As far as eyes are concerned same as part 1.

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    • Tobi is a different person than Obito, so which is it lol?

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Tobi is a different person than Obito, so which is it lol?

      Tobi

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    • He pretty much reacts the same as Obito, managing to use Kamui in time to evade Sasuke. His playful demeanor would probably lead to his downfall though IMO

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    • Tobi is just a persona that Obito put on for show. He wouldn't slack off when fighting Itachi. I do think Obito takes this though, mainly because of the warping speed Obito has shown us. If Obito saving Sasuke from Onoki is any indication, he definitely takes this.

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    • @Prince Idk though, we don't really know what a Healthy Itachi's speed feats are like. I'm not saying he beats Obito, but I don't think the win is as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. I'm assuming Healthy Itachi means he isn't near blind, or has his terminal illness, so I think he'd have more finesse with his movement speed in general.

      What we saw of Edo Itachi was that he was quick enough to stab Nagato with SoT, but then again Nagato was immobile and reacted slow due to being controlled (point and case, he was burning in Amaterasu for 5 minutes whilst Itachi spoke about Sasuke and Shisui's eye before he used Shinra Tensei). I'd probably have to watch his fight against Sage Kabuto again.

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    • The thread deems that he behaves like Tobi. There are ways to counter kamui's suction, which includes crow substitution or explosive clones.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou
      Jason of the Mangekyou removed this reply because:
      '-'
      07:11, March 11, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Tobi can simply suck in explosive clones as he did with Konan's paper bombs. Although, I don't think Itachi would use taijutsu against Tobi, so the idea of crow substitution and explosive clones don't make sense.

      The fight will most likely start with genjutsu, then would move to Itachi using fire style and shurikenjutsu. Tobi would avoid all attacks and Itachi would observe. If as OP says, Itachi knows about Kamui, then he knows his only chance to do damage is the moment Tobi materializes. Honestly, Itachi doesn't have an attack that is guaranteed outperform kamui to land a hit on Tobi. While Tobi would not only use Kamui to avoid all damage, but also use it to bypass all defenses, even Susanoo and YM.

      On top of that, Kamui can extinguish Amaterasu and Obito still has fire style that can overpower Itachi's and wood release for sneak attacks. Itachi definitely will put up a tough fight, but Tobi wins in the end.

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    • @Ninja of War

      Was there a definite confirmation that Kamui can extinguish Amaterasu? For all we know, Obito could've used Izanagi at that time and not Kamui. It wouldn't be too strange since Obito has a large supply of Sharingans.

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    • @Thresh

      Obito noted that he survived because he kept his abilities unknown to Itachi, and Itachi knows what Izanagi is. So I'm pretty sure it was Kamui

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    • Itachi knows about Kamui, he just doesn't know the exact specifics of it. He knows Obito can warp back and forth. Obito was saying that if Itachi knew the workings of his intangility, then Obito himself would be dead. He isn't doubting in the slightest that Itachi could kill him, and he made it clear Itachi could of killed Sasuke.

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    • Clones give Itachi a big advantage, in that if Tobi absorbs one of them, he'll be able to attack from both sides. If Itachi switches places with a clone, caught unaware Tobi will most likely suck in a clone, considering that's his primary way of fighting

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    • @BrainBrand true, absorbing a clone is an issue. But as soon as Obito notices there's another Itachi running around that's not in his dimension, he can just immediately eject the clone

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    • Squinty97 wrote: @BrainBrand true, absorbing a clone is an issue. But as soon as Obito notices there's another Itachi running around that's not in his dimension, he can just immediately eject the clone

      Itachi can just use the moment after he absorbs the clone, to ambush Tobi with Amaterasu or Gokakyuu from Tobi's blindspot, catching Tobi unaware. If Tobi tries to phase through the Amaterasu with Kamui, the clone will kill him.

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    • @Brainbrand why wouldn't he just warp the Amaterasu away instead of using intangibility?

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    • Itachi's too fast, the moment Obito realizes the clone is in there it's too late. That is why it is vital to Obito to keep his Intangibilities secret hidden from somebody like Itachi especially. Unlike Kakashi he wouldn't just punch Obito's body parts.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: @Brainbrand why wouldn't he just warp the Amaterasu away instead of using intangibility?

      Due to the fact that it would be on his back, and the back of his head. I don't think he used the warping ability to deal with Amaterasu the first time, but the phasing ability, it makes more sense that way.

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    • @BrainBrand the warping ability makes more sense. The Amaterasu was gone, it didn't just fall to the floor passing through him.

      @Flatzone Obito's reflexes let him keep up with Kakashi, Guy, KCM Naruto, and Bee all at once. if he sees Itachi after he already absorbed Itachi, he'll know what's happening.

      Though what's in Itachi's favor is that he absorbed Kakashi and still used his phasing ability. Lapse of judgement that Itachi could use, though idk if he'd have the same lapse in a 1v1 compared to the 1v4 he was pulling before.

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    • @Squinty97 Amaterasu may have fell on the floor (since we don't see the area Tobi comes out of), or it may have disappeared, when the object it was burning was gone. Either way I don't see how Tobi is going to warp something on the back of his head. Even if he could, Itachi could attack him while he's doing that.

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    • Itachi is a super observant and extremely intelligent person with ridiculous thought processing speeds in battle. Obito's Intangibility would be figured out much sooner than against Kakashi.. hell if Torune and Foo figured it out that fast Itachi would definitely have it figured out quick, and if he sucked in one of Itachi's clones(which could easily happen as Itachi's clone creation + switching is so fast it's nearly instantaenous, and other Sharingan users never had a clue) Obito is screwed. This all comes back to what Obito was implying, if Itachi knew how the intangibility worked Obito would be dead and Obito himself said that.

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    • If Obito is absorbing an explosive clone then Itachi would obviously explode it midway.

      It would've been fun to see Obito trying to get Itachi into kamui dimension, since he can conceal his presence, spawing a clone behind of obito who is busy absorbing Itachi would not end well for Obito.

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    • Itachi has proven he can track and sneak up on Obito undetected, such as the time before the Uchiha Massacre was done. He can also switch seamlessly with his clones to the point nobody knows he even made a clone. It's like Obito said himself, if Itachi knew Obito would be dead.

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    • Wasn't that a filler? What does Itachi have that is guaranteed to outpace Kamui?

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    • @BrainBrand the fact that we don't see the Amaterasu on the floor means it's more likely gone.

      Besides, at that point Obito himself being burned by Amaterasu. It wasn't like it hadn't touched him yet. So by that point his own body is burning, so if he sent part of his body to Kamui then it would just be burning in Kamui's dimension and not solve anything. Makes more sense to remove it from himself somehow.

      Also, Obito could abosrb it from the back of his head because he's touching it and it's been established that's what he needs to absorb things. But how is Itachi hitting the back of his head anyways? Itachi requires intense build-up for Amaterasu (and MS techs in general) that even non sensors and non sages have noticed coming. He can't exactly just fire it off like Sasuke

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    • @Halcyonite

      Obito's use of Kamui was the fastest we've ever seen in the series. Obito would have had to warped into the cube Sasuke was in and warped them both away 'without anyone seeing. No speed ITachi has ever shown would be as fast as Obito warping Sasuke away. If he pulled that on Itachi, he'd beat him 1000/1000 times over and over. Hands down.

      But on another note, Itachi slipped up during his battle with Sasuke. He didn't realize the Shuriken was rigged until it was too late and then suffered a leg injury too. If he slips up like that vs Obito, it could cost him his life. Whether someone is making contact with OBito or Obito with them, he can Kamui them into his dimension.

      If Itachi pulls out Susanoo, then Obito will easily see how much of a toll it will take on Itachi and just let him waste chakra.

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    • @Squinty I think the most likely scenario is that Obito didn't Kamui out of Amaterasu. It's more likely to be Izanagi.

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    • Thresh, The Chain Warden wrote: @Squinty I think the most likely scenario is that Obito didn't Kamui out of Amaterasu. It's more likely to be Izanagi.

      Again, Obito noted he survived the attack because Itachi didn't know his abilities. Itachi knows about Izanagi, so that means Izanagi isn't what Obito used to survive the attack

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    • @Squinty97:

      Obito can choose what he sends to next dimension, when phasing, so even if he was burning, Amaterasu wouldn't go with it, if he doesn't choose for it to.

      Obito may be touching Amaterasu, but the portal is on the front of his head, not the back. The black fire on the back of his head would be unaffected. Obito would be caught unaware thinking he got Itachi, so it's unlikely he would be in sensor mode, if he is a sensor. Besides Itachi can just opt for Gokakyuu or shurikens instead. It would have the same effect. Kunais can actually kill him from his blindspot actually.

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    • @BrainBrand But... it's burning him... If he sends the body part away, it's still on fire.

      In any case, why again? Why would he choose to drop the fire instead of putting it away in a safe place?

      The portal warps all around him lol, that's how he takes himself into Kamui. If it didn't affect behind his eye, he'd be leaving behind a chunk of his body every time he tried to teleport to Kamui.

      Obito isn't a sensor. But non sensors have accurately predicted his MS activation already.

      Kunai couldn't kill Iruka in chapter 1.

      Also, underestimating Obito and saying he'd simply be caught unaware is downplaying the fact that he was groomed to the point he was near Madara level (when Madara was alive, not when he was arrived).

      But yeah, I'd say a healthy Itachi could probably beat Tobi in a fight. If he was the same state vs Sasuke, then probably not enough stamina to pull it off.

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    • @Squinty97:

      He can choose what he phases with him, there's no reason not to phase through it. I don't think he can suck it up.

      When Tobi warps himself, IIRC, the surrounding area is sucked in first, which makes so the rest of the body comes closer to the portal. With each part that gets sucked in the rest of him gets closer to the portal.

      Itachi could if he attacked his blindspot and his head. The point of the kunai isn't to kill Tobi, because he might dodge it, it's to force Tobi to phase through it, so the clone can kill him in the other world.

      If the kunai doesn't work he could do Gokakyuu instead. I agree that Itachi would win too.

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    • @BrainBrand

      That doesn't made sense, Amaterasu isn't water or earth. Once it's on him, it's the state of his body. His body doesn't just have a glob of ink on him. His body is burning. So when he sends a bit of his body away, that bit will still be burning. Because it's his actual body burning. He'd have to go intangible and let the burning bit fall off, but that's not how his intangibility works. He can only put part of him in a different dimension, but they're still all connected. So his burning bit would still be burning, just somewhere else.

      Yeah. None of that indicates that he has an inability to take in something behind him. Like I said, he's pulling in the back of his head too when he teleports.

      But if Tobi knows he's being attacked when he just sent an Itachi to his Kamui dimension, then why would he phase and not dodge? And Obito can use Gokakyuu too. Or phase into the ground and just exclusively fight the clone in Kamui

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    • @Squinty97:

      If Tobi can indeed choose what he sends to the next dimension when phasing, than he'll probably just choose not to send it with him. Why do you say that he could only send part of him to the next dimension? He can send the whole body to the next dimension, like when he phases through the ground.

      Besides wouldn't mean Minato couldn't warp away Amaterasu once hit?

      He pulling the back of the head in, because it's connected to the front head that's being pulled, since the front of the head it's closer to the portal.

      Tobi usually phases through attacks, when he can and doesn't usually take the time to dodge. If Tobi phases through the ground, he would be killed by the clone.

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    • @BrainBrand again, it's his own body that's burning. He sends his own body to the next dimension. It's not like water where it's not actually doing anything, Amaterasu is specifically burning his body. If Obito was intangible before it started burning it would make more sense that he could use intangibility.

      I'm saying he can only teleport a part of him, as in it's an option for him to do so. Not that it's the only thing he could so, my wording was bad.

      Where did Minato come from in this debate? In any case, Minato already demonstrated the ability to teleport anything chakra-based independently of himself if he's touching it.

      Yeah, which means he would just pull in Amaterasu from the back of his head if Itachi even managed to hit him there.

      Tobi usually phases through attacks. But if he just absorbed Itachi's clone and then was attacked by Itachi, why would he phase? Also, why wouldn't he just spit out the clone to block the attack?

      How do you figure that Obito would lose to a clone? That seems like you're downplaying him there.

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    • @Squinty97:

      Yes it was burning his skin, but the fire is on top his of his body. Minato was able to separate Amaterasu from his body with a space-time jutsu, why can't Tobi potentially do the same?

      Tobi phased through attacks, even though he had a Naruto clone and Kakashi in his dimension. Is in character for him to do so, even when it's not smart to. In the scenario I constructed, he would only barely react to Itachi. That's giving Tobi more credit than I should, because there's no reason to assume he would be able to react to Itachi, when he thinks he's already won and he get's attacked from a blindspot.

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    • @BrainBrand

      Tobi reacted just fine to the 4th Raikage and Ohnoki's dust release, so why would he only "barely react" to Itachi?

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    • @Ninja Of War

      Because he would think he already won and Itachi would be attacking a blind spot.

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    • In what sense? Tobi warping away a clone doesn't seem logical to me. He knows that even if Itachi and the clone work together, they still can't outpace Kamui. Do you think Tobi would use wood release and if so, how effective would it be?

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    • Does Obito always have control of where he puts people in Kamui, and when he chooses to spit them out? It would seem him warping Fuu and Torune supports this, but then why would he suck Kakashi in and place him right next to where his intangible body parts would be, just to get gut-punched? My thought process leads me to believe that he has to preemptively incapacitate the person in Kamui or keep tabs on them in order to eject them back into the real world immediately (which is why Fuu or Torune, idk who is who, came back under genjutsu). It's like how Kaguya didn't always know where Team 7 was in her dimensions, so perhaps Obito might temporarily lose trace of where someone is in the Kamui dimension (he'd obviously eventually find them again).

      ^Just to be clear, I'm unsure about this.

      That being said, I don't think Obito would suck up a clone, considering he has other options of attack against Itachi. Sucking up a clone is something that is last resort, tbh. The dude knows Itachi.

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    • @Ninja of War:

      He wouldn't know it's a clone. I'm honestly unsure of how effective wood release would be, but I don't think he would use it, since he doesn't normally use it.

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    • How would Tobi not know it's a clone? I'm curious as to how this scenario of yours plays out.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: How would Tobi not know it's a clone? I'm curious as to how this scenario of yours plays out.

      Itachi uses a LOS blocker and switches with a clone.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: Itachi uses a LOS blocker and switches with a clone.

      Interesting, well good to know this is all fun and games. I don't think you have made a good argument for Tobi not seeing Itachi make a clone.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Interesting, well good to know this is all fun and games. I don't think you have made a good argument for Tobi not seeing Itachi make a clone.

      A line of sight blocker isn't enough? Gokakyuu or crow summons are able to block line of sight.

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    • Given that Obito has a Sharingan, he'd see the chakra networks of Itachi and his clones through the LOS Blockers. Even if Sharingan can't tell the difference between clones and the real deal, all Obito needs to do is to pay attention to see if Itachi swaps places with ones that he has just summoned.

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    • Only Madara has shown the ability to differentiate between a clone and a original.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: Given that Obito has a Sharingan, he'd see the chakra networks of Itachi and his clones through the LOS Blockers. Even if Sharingan can't tell the difference between clones and the real deal, all Obito needs to do is to pay attention to see if Itachi swaps places with ones that he has just summoned.

      It's unlikely Tobi will be able to see through the chakra of Gokakyuu to Itachi's chakra

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    • When Madara did that with Naruto it was only because of the difference in chakra inside the clone, Madara knows how much chakra Kurama has and a clone wouldn't have nearly that much by any means. So Madara TRULY has only known the difference between a Wood Clone and the original and that's only because he knows Hashirama so well. So.. in reality nobody has shown the ability to differentiate between clones and the original in general.

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    • Is this the orange mask or Obito with the Rinnegan?

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    • Aidenfoober123 wrote: Is this the orange mask or Obito with the Rinnegan?

      Orange mask

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    • BrainBrand wrote: A line of sight blocker isn't enough? Gokakyuu or crow summons are able to block line of sight.

      So Tobi is gonna fall for basic deception? Again, tricks like that don't work on Obito. What Itachi needs to do is somehow try and stop Tobi from being intangible, most likely through the use of Amaterasu. Then try and force a Tsukuyomi to end things quickly, otherwise Tobi wins.

      Although, there is the argument of using Kamui to avoid Tsukuyomi. Warping away your head when Tsukuyomi is cast, would prevent it from taking effect.

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    • It's the eyesight that gets you caught, if you can see the users eye then it can connect to your eyes chakra and bam. So making the head intangible won't help.

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    • You can't cast genjutsu on something that's not there, and Tsukuyomi is not instantaneous from eyesight.

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    • Yes it is, the moment eyesight connects its too late, hence to never look in Itachi's eyes as people say in the series

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    • There is chakra build-up involved. But that is not even the point, the point is that you can't cast genjutsu on something that's not there.

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    • Here is the issue with your idea, Obito can still see when he goes intangible which means his eyesight works still and therefor his chakra is being used to see too (Sharingan). So either Obito really is a sensor and he can't visually see when he goes intangible, or he can see and therefor be caught in Genjutsu.

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    • Well, there have been inconsistencies with Obito's intangibility. That being, Kamui is not actually intangibility, simply being warping parts of your body to Kamui's space-time area. Yet, Obito can whole-body slip through the ground without going back into the space-time area.

      As for your point of Obito not being able to see, that would be logical if he is warping his head for Kamui. Isn't the whole mechanic of Obito's Kamui dependent on the predictive abilities of the sharingan? So, predicting an attack will hit you somewhere and warping that part of you away preemptively to avoid it. I don't see an issue with the mechanic, only the full-body usage.

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    • He has to either be able to see while intangible or he is a sensor type otherwise some of the things he has done like making his head intangible when a kunai goes threw it would be too great a risk that he can't take

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    • If Kamui works as described, he wouldn't need to be a Sensor Type, as anything attempting to infringe on his personal space would actively render said infringed space intangible, including his clothing. Its as if the technique is active, but isn't deducting time from his intangibility unless something unwanted infringes on his space.

      Also, why Obito can overlap his body with his dimension, I don't think Genjutsu would work, as his chakra isn't present within the space itself to be controlled, just as his body isn't there to be harmed.

      Also, I personally don't think Tsukuyomi will amount to much given Obito's own genjutsu prowess, Sharingan and Uchiha lineage. Afterall, Sasuke didn't share the same exact blood as Itachi, he was just his brother. Obito is a Uchiha Clan member to, and if the same blood argument can be used for Sasuke, it can be used for Obito in that sense.

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    • Same blood really just meant Sasuke, he only said that to further enforce Sasuke into thinking that he only should be the one to fight Itachi. Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi who had Obito's right eye and according to Obito and Itachi had better prowess and skill with it than most actual Uchiha members. Yet Itachi wanted him to be tortured and not killed or maimed and that's exactly what happened, instantaneous torture that lasted 1 second. I think the clear implication according to Obito's own words is that Sasuke never actually saw through any of Itachi's illusions, Itachi let him break them all including Tsukuyomi all in an effort to not only die, but to exhaust Sasuke's chakra, remove the cursed seal and get rid of Orochimaru from him and Itachi succeeded in all of those. He played Sasuke like a fiddle. So in reality I don't see a completely serious determined to win Itachi using a watered down Tsukuyomi like that in this and Obito will be smart to avoid it because all that would take is literally 1 second.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He has to either be able to see while intangible or he is a sensor type otherwise some of the things he has done like making his head intangible when a kunai goes threw it would be too great a risk that he can't take

      Again the sharingan's predictive and perceptive abilities solve this conundrum that you have. The risk is heavily minimized due to Kamui.

      @Princeharris

      I didn't think of this, but Hashirama's cells do enhance Sharingan and MS abilities, so what you said is possible.

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    • @Flatzone

      People can have the same blood type, but people don't share the same exact blood. How do we know what context Itachi was talking in? He could of meant same blood as in someone with his exact blood, or someone related to him, as in sibling, or same blood as in a fellow clan member.

      Besides, how would Itachi possible know or even be able to test that only someone with the same blood as him could break out of his Genjutsu? The same blood in what context? Itachi was portrayed well, just like they do Sasuke in the anime, but he is very overhyped by fans.

      I don't even think a Healthy Itachi with double chakra reserves could beat Obito. Obito has Hashi Cells, the most Haxed MS Ability, doesn't suffer from blindness. He takes this 100%.

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    • Transplanted Hashi cells aren't as powerful as you think they are when not in a transmigrant, Yamato and Danzo are proof of that. Obito said if Itachi knew his secret, Obito would be dead, if he himself says that I am inclined to believe that more than what you think.

      Also the whole blood thing doesn't matter anyway, it was just another thing to incite Sasuke to want to be the one to fight Itachi. When Itachi used the Tsukuyomi with intent to disable an enemy, he did exactly that regardless if they had the Sharingan or were an Uchiha and even against Killer B he was warned not to get caught in it. Because a not watered down Tsukuyomi works in the span of ONE second and the damage is done, it's too late. Again if Obito didn't believe Itachi could kill him he would not have said so.

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    • @FlatZone

      So you just gonna ignore the solution the problem you brought? The Hashirama cells that Madara cultivated seemed to be of higher quality than what Orochimaru had. Why you may ask? Most of Obito's body was replaced with Hashirama cells and White Zetsu bits and he gained a lot of life-force, healing power and minimal strain on his MS. Yamato never had that life-force or healing power, while Danzo also didn't obtain healing power and had out of control Hashi cells.

      Um...Obito acknowledged that Itachi's plan to use Amaterasu via Sasuke would have worked if he didn't have Kamui. Not that Itachi will kill him if they fought. So what are you getting at here?

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    • FlatZone wrote: Because a not watered down Tsukuyomi works in the span of ONE second and the damage is done, it's too late. Again if Obito didn't believe Itachi could kill him he would not have said so.

      I still fail to see how you'd argue that there's no time manipulation when there's no indication either way. Maybe Itachi made it easier to break out of, but there's no reason to think that he didn't use time manipulation. In fact, it seemed more likely that he was only using it to mess with him, as he didn't use it to severely torture. Itachi honestly looked like he was using Tsukuyomi full strength with a less severe torture in order to wear Sasuke down as the endgame and was just surprised when Sasuke broke out.

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    • Itachi thought Obito was Madara. Even Itachi was being played like a fiddle. I believe Obito takes this, just as I believe Jiraiya would beat Itachi in battle as Itachi would be surprised by his Sage Mode he didn't account for when he made the statement about him in Part I.

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    • Kabuto had Perfected Sage Mode and Sage Transformation and used them together, sure it surprised Itachi but he proceeded to fight Kabuto equally, only getting hit by the surprise attacks such as when he launched out of the snake, or when Itachi was protecting Sasuke. Not to mention Itachi was an Edo meaning weaker altogether, and having lower reserves albeit they regenerate over time infinitely and Itachi still did what he was able to do, it's super clear you don't like Itachi and that's cool but come on lol

      @ninja https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Yamato

      Yamato does indeed have the healing ability. Source of the cells don't matter here, unless you are a transmigrant then the impact you get from them won't be as great as you try to make them.

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    • @FlatZone

      So, in a two on one fight between Kabuto and Itachi+Sasuke, you praise Itachi for fighting Kabuto equally? It means more that Kabuto fought both MS Itachi and EMS Sasuke each with Susanoo, and even managing to strike Itachi multiple times. You could say SM Kabuto equaled the both of them.

      I do recall Yamato being struck by Sasuke and Kabuto and no advanced healing from him was shown. It is then confirmed by the series that Hashirama's cells reduce the risk of using the sharingan and the MS, so why say there is less of an impact?

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    • THe DB4 says he has the healing ability and at the time he got struck by Sasuke Idek if the healing ability was a thing yet so that's not a very good example to use. Sasuke never did the actual CQC with Kabuto, only Itachi did. All Sasuke did was be defensive and fire off a few attacks total. Mainly it was Edo Itachi fighting Kabuto and that was it.

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    • And Kabuto managed to strike Itachi multiple times, despite Sasuke also attacking. I acknowledge what the DB says, yet the instances I mentioned are not bad examples, they are examples where the manga takes precedent over the Databook.

      On my other point of Obito having more advanced Hashi cells, due to the modifications, Obito doesn't have to eat or drink anything to survive. Not Yamato or Danzo has that ability. So, with the added reinforcement and vitality, Obito has the upper hand in this fight.

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    • Ya'll geniuses figured out Obito will get Itachi in Kamui dimension yet? Scenario 1: He sneaks up behind Itachi, Itachi senses and chops his **** head off. Scenario 2: He sneaks up, taps Itachi on the shoulder to use kamui, Itachi swiftly weaves signs for a clone in that moments and the clone chops his **** head off.

      Fuu and Torune nearly killed him...Itachi's corpse was soloing even though it wasn't in the same room [1], Konan nearly fodderises him. Minato bitch slapped him. This guy has a pathetic fighting record lol.

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    • @Jason, Minato took a swipe at Obito when Obito was much younger, and Obito still managed to nearly warp him in while Minato used FTG to teleport out. So no, Itachi isn't chopping his head off or making a clone, being slower than Minato.

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    • @Jason

      Despite the obvious multiple heavy assumptions you are giving Itachi, using the either-or logical fallacy doesn't give you any authority.

      Lol, most users recognize that Obito in the instance with Fuu and Torune was always in control, in the instance against Itachi's rigged Amaterasu, he used Kamui to avoid it and using Izanagi he managed to avoid Konan's attack. And yes Minato defeat Obito, but aren't we talking about Itachi?

      Nice try on the spin, but I'm not falling for it.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: @Jason, Minato took a swipe at Obito when Obito was much younger, and Obito still managed to nearly warp him in while Minato used FTG to teleport out. So no, Itachi isn't chopping his head off or making a clone, being slower than Minato.

      Oh he is making a clone, having the fastest hanseals in the series would make that possible. Then there is always crow substitution...

      Ninja Of War wrote: Lol, most users recognize that Obito in the instance with Fuu and Torune was always in control, in the instance against Itachi's rigged Amaterasu, he used Kamui to avoid it and using Izanagi he managed to avoid Konan's attack. And yes Minato defeat Obito, but aren't we talking about Itachi?

      Most users recognize that Obito wasn't in control, having lost an arm and all, so in control. The other fights he nearly escaped death or comes out severely wounded, doesn't change my statement of having the most pathetic fighting record.

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    • Um...He planned to lose an arm to warp Torune. He replaced it later, what's hard to understand? So winning everything except against Minato gives Obito "the most pathetic fighting record". Lol, spin working overtime on your end.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      So Tobi is gonna fall for basic deception? Again, tricks like that don't work on Obito.

      Why would it not work on Obito? It being a basic strategy doesn't mean it wouldn't be effective.

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    • BrainBrand wrote:

      Why would it not work on Obito? It being a basic strategy doesn't mean it wouldn't be effective.

      It goes against the very nature of Obito's character and fighting style to be caught out like this. His Kamui mechanic makes this even less of an option considering he can slip through the ground and even attacks from his blindside.

      Basic strategies do work, but straightforward plans definitely don't work against Obito. Plus, you have to be careful for the turnaround, so why won't a basic strategy work against Itachi? Obito uses underground roots as a line-of-sight, slips underneath and pops up to warp Itachi away and wins.

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    • @Ninja of War

      If Obito slips through the ground, he's breaking line of sight and Itachi can switch with his clone.

      If Line of Sight breaks Itachi switches with clones, Obito warps a clone.

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    • @Brain

      That's assuming Itachi is not preoccupied with the wood release, assuming Itachi would make a clone and assuming Obito doesn't notice.

      A lot of assuming for your basic strategy.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Um...He planned to lose an arm to warp Torune. He replaced it later, what's hard to understand? So winning everything except against Minato gives Obito "the most pathetic fighting record". Lol,

      Where did you get that he planned to lose an arm lmao. No being damaged and put to near death states constantly does.

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    • @ Ninja

      Why would he be preoccupied with wood release? It shouldn't be hard to avoid.

      Itachi knows how Obito's Kamui works, so it's his best option to win to use clones, by breaking line of sight.

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    • @Jason

      Please look up that instance again, Obito planned to lose an arm because he himself made contact with Torune, removed it and even kicked it at Fuu. lol. Being damaged? I guess Kabuto damaging Itachi multiple times means Itachi has a bad record according to you lol. Near death state? Lol, the only time Obito was near death was in the ten-tails revival arc when the Juubi was extracted.

      @Brain

      The large scale version of underground roots is not just one attack and covers a large area. I think Itachi's best option would be to try to force Tsukuyomi on Obito, but easier said than done.

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    • @Ninja

      You think Tsukuyomi would work on Obito?

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    • First things first. All of you are assuming. Don't accuse one user of assuming when that is literally what each of you are doing. Don't create your assumed scenarios and be ok with it then see his assumed scenarios and have an issue all of a sudden, that's childish.

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    • @After he went in Kamui dimension Torune has spread the poison all over his body,Obito had no clue of that. After he warped torune he even commented that the poison got in his arm. Konan had him in near death state, but yeah we'll add the ten tails thing too.

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    • @Brain

      I think it's Itachi's best option. Whether it would actually work idk.

      @Jason

      Torune didn't spread poison over his body, it was venomous beetles which Obito commented on, lol having to explain entire instances now lol. And then he removed the arm, great. Obito took damage from Konan, but not near death state.

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    • IK, MY point remains Obito didn't know of the spreading cuz he went away for that moment. Why did he need to use izanagi then?

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    • @Jason

      He commented on it, recognizing that Torune was a member of the Aburame clan. Lol, what part of that don't you understand is acknowledgement of the venomous beetles. Obito even saw Torune extracting them from Fuu's arm from the accidental contact.

      After all that you still think Obito didn't understand what was happening and didn't take advantage of being able to replace his arm?

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    • the spreading i'm referring to, is Torune spreading the insects over his entire body, Obito didn't see that part. He only say that if torune touchs you with his fist you get infected or whatever.

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    • I found something interesting, even though Sasuke witnessed how Obito's Kamui works, he still said he could kill him with Amaterasu in chp 453.

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    • https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--B4fwe8cJCk/XeZ_bRDLO4I/AAAAAAAAMLM/LF43lTc4Pj0OCadzhfdR2dQoPmAdTheDgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/016.webp Sasuke indeed did, despite knowing about the intangibility and the time that Amaterasu was used on Tobi thanks to Itachi's trap, he then mentions something he wanted to test out anyway(Flame Control most likely). Sasuke is the opposite of stupid so if he is saying this then there must be a way it could work.

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    • Could he be referring to the zetsu? o.O

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    • He could be.

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    • Actually yes, I do believe he might be referring to the Zetsu.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: the spreading i'm referring to, is Torune spreading the insects over his entire body, Obito didn't see that part. He only say that if torune touchs you with his fist you get infected or whatever.

      Obito's Sharingan saw both the individual beetles and the chakra they had. It's why at first he thought Torune was using a jutsu that sends chakra to destroy cells, when he observed Torune's jutsu affecting Fuu. So, the moment Obito pops up to warp Torune, he is aware of Torune's full body insects due to his Sharingan, which is why he also comments that his arm is infected after contact.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: So, the moment Obito pops up to warp Torune, he is aware of Torune's full body insects due to his Sharingan, which is why he also comments that his arm is infected after contact.

      [1] Well the panel only shows obito coming up in one fell swoop with the main intention of taking torune in the kamui dimnesion, no hint of what you're saying....Headcanon

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: [1] Well the panel only shows obito coming up in one fell swoop with the main intention of taking torune in the kamui dimnesion, no hint of what you're saying....Headcanon

      Lol, you can deny the abilities of Obito's Sharingan all you want, it doesn't make it Headcanon.

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    • It does when you add things that are not there.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Obito's Sharingan saw both the individual beetles and the chakra they had. It's why at first he thought Torune was using a jutsu that sends chakra to destroy cells, when he observed Torune's jutsu affecting Fuu. So, the moment Obito pops up to warp Torune, he is aware of Torune's full body insects due to his Sharingan, which is why he also comments that his arm is infected after contact.

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    • just post the panels in sequence @Jason you have access to them

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    • [1] Let me know if it shows properly. ..from the pic I see no hint of him planning to lose an arm, it's more like he had no other choice with the action he had taken.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: [1] Let me know if it shows properly. ..from the pic I see no hint of him planning to lose an arm, it's more like he had no other choice with the action he had taken.

      Actually, if you see what happens when Obito warps away Fuu, Obito doesn't make contact with him to use Kamui on him, he was only very close. So yes, Obito did indeed make the choice to make contact with Torune, knowing full well the venomous beetles were spread across his body. Using the perceptive abilities of the Sharingan.

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    • Obito wasn't shocked or surprised when he touched Torune, but his reaction shows that he didn't think that would happen probably because he has gloves on(he probably thought that would help him since Torune had to take his gloves and shirt off). He ONLY figured out that they were venomous beetles because Torune took them back from Fuu and then administered a cure for the venom.

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    • Obito's left hand wasn't even visible in the manga whilst he was absorbing Fuu, and considering every other instances of him using Kamui he needed to make contact with his opponent, so why is this time different lol. This means in no way he planned to lose an arm, if he could use kamui without touching his opponent first he could've done so against Torune and not lose an arm, that sounds smarter, doesn't it?

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    • I'm not saying he didn't touch Torune, he definitely did. I'm sure he thought his gloves would save him considering that Torune was wearing gloves and a shirt earlier and had to take his gloves and then his shirt off to use the touch aspect of his beetle spreading. Obito just thought he was safe from the beetles and used his Zetsu arm knowing he could just rip it off if need be.

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    • That was directed at @N.O.W, I agree with your comment'-'/

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    • Ithachi could win cause if hes full healthy he can probably use izanagi and do what he did with sage kabuto but that might not work against tobi and tobi could try to pull him into the kami dimension which could work but idk this is a tough fight

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Obito's left hand wasn't even visible in the manga whilst he was absorbing Fuu, and considering every other instances of him using Kamui he needed to make contact with his opponent, so why is this time different lol. This means in no way he planned to lose an arm, if he could use kamui without touching his opponent first he could've done so against Torune and not lose an arm, that sounds smarter, doesn't it?

      Lol, It is an anomaly that apparently the anime agrees with. And you haven't even mentioned that Obito's Sharingan can see Torune's insects, so when he pops up to warp Torune he is aware of the full-body usage. But alas, it's easier I guess to ignore/disregard lol.

      Note: Btw, isn't Obito able to eject people/objects out of Kamui's space like he did with Fuu and Torune, when he needed test subjects for reanimation? Then this whole Itachi clone business is kinda pointless, on top of being unlikely in the first place.

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    • @ Ninja

      The clones aren't pointless, even if Tobi can reject them, they we'll stop Tobi from using warping powers on Itachi, while their out.

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    • Obito has only ever ejected inanimated objects and people under the spell of genjutsu as far as I re-call, I also don't remember him ever being able to be intangible while inside of Kamui's dimension so it would be in his best interest to keep Itachi FROM getting a clone in there

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    • That's true, he never did eject Kakashi, even though having him in there was dangerous.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: @ Ninja

      The clones aren't pointless, even if Tobi can reject them, they we'll stop Tobi from using warping powers on Itachi, while their out.

      I don't think that clones are pointless. I'd say that Itachi relying on a strategy for Obito to warp a clone (highly unlikely), when he can eject them is flawed.

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    • @Ninja

      I don't think it's unlikely, Obito in character warped Kakashi, even though there was a serious risk involved. Now that I think about it, Obito may very well warp a clone.

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    • @Brain

      Well, I can respect your point, even if I disagree. I just think relying on Obito to make a mistake is not a good plan.

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    • @Ninja

      Itachi can force Tobi to use up chakra, by making him phase through kunai and shurikens or he can have a clone attack his blindspot with kunai. It shouldn't activate Kamui, if he's completely unaware of it, just like with Minato using FTG to attack his back.

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    • @Brain

      The problem is Obito has been shown to use kamui to phase through attacks aimed at his blind-spot. Kamui intangibility is near instant, Minato was able to outpace that speed that's why Obito lost to him. I don't see a simple kunai doing the same.

      Do you think Itachi should use fire release? Because Obito has fire style that is more powerful than his.

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    • @Ninja

      Are you referring to when Naruto tried to rasengan Tobi through the back and Tobi phased through him. Tobi saw him then and commented on the clone. The intangibility relies on Tobi being aware of the attack, something he's completely unaware of should hit him.

      Sometimes he should use it, when he has the advantage. Alternatively Itachi could avoid his katon, or use ribcage Susanoo to block his katon.

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    • @Brain

      One of the instances is when Guy and Kakashi saved Naruto from being warped. I agree it isn't automatic, yet, Obito's MS can even react to the 4th Raikage. And he seems to be able to read blind-spot attacks just fine.

      Obito would be able to slip through Susanoo, how would Itachi adapt?

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    • You're acting as if Itachi just rushes in like Sasuke does. Itachi and Minato are the two top smartest fighters around so thinking Itachi would do ANYTHING for no reason or out of rash decisions is far out of character. Obito says that if Itachi knew his secret(the intangibility aspect of Kamui's workings) then he would be dead. https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c4jByg6_gsY/XeZc4-Lv8nI/AAAAAAAAKx8/iDw6JWjvfWYlFjNpnmoXMuZILfyIygVmQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/010.webp Obito has no doubts that if Itachi figured out his ability (Kamui Intangibilty) he would be dead. Minato, Torune, Foo, Kakashi, and Konan figured it out so to think Itachi wouldn't in a scuffle would be insane. I think with a combination of his jutsu and abilities Itachi would eventually kill Obito. In the end of the Battle Obito would use Izanagi and Itachi would figure it out and sacrifice an eye to use Izanami whether he was mortally wounded at the moment or not and Obito who is just like Kabuto will be stuck in there and Itachi can then kill him or seal him leaving Itachi to either win without injury or win and later die from his injuries. Without Kamui's intangibility I would give it to Itachi 8 out of 10 times, with Kamui's intangibility I give it to Itachi 6 out of 10 times. I prefer to use Obito's own words to support that.

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    • @Ninja

      When Gain attacked him from behind, he said name of attack and his foot was in front of Tobi's mask when it hit, so Tobi could see him through his peripherals.

      It's true that he could slip the full size Susanoo, but the ribcage one hugs the body.

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    • @Brain

      I doubt Guy said it out loud and Obito's mask at that time kinda prevents peripheral vision, but the point was they attacked the moment Obito was supposed to materialize to warp Naruto. And Obito can still counter that.

      Well, the rib-cage is a bit small, but there still is a gap. Apart from kamui and fire style, what other jutsu do you think Obito would use?

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    • @Ninja

      Other than Kamui Shuriken and Kamui katon, I don't think he would use any other jutsu. Kamui related jutsu and katon seem to be his bread and butter.

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    • @Brain

      Well, I mean any shinobi would be happy to spam those. Do you think Obito can use genjutsu on Itachi? Given Obito's prowess with controlling Yagura.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: @Brain

      Well, I mean any shinobi would be happy to spam those. Do you think Obito can use genjutsu on Itachi? Given Obito's prowess with controlling Yagura.

      He can for brief moments, but so can Itachi. Kakashi was able to see through Obito's genjutsu. Obito's feat of controlling Yagura was probably due to the seal that sealed the 3 tails wasn't strong enough to hinder him.

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    • @Brain

      A brief moment genjutsu is also what I'm thinking. Obito planned that fight with Kakashi to get him to remove the seal on his heart. So there's more to that instance than what it seems. Which is why I doubt the genjutsu usage as well, although Obito's Sharingan could have a backdoor to his own genjutsu.

      What about stamina? Who has more?

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    • Obito has more, but how much more is uncertain. I say he has a 3.5 or a 4 in stamina. The reason I put him there is, because he can only use his MS jutsu for around 10 minutes, which IIRC was about the same for Sasuke vs Danzo.

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    • @Brain

      That could just be the jutsu-limit, but I recall it was 5 min intangibility. And that was only continuous Kamui intangibility, dodging every once and awhile shakes it up.

      Speed-wise, do you think Obito would be difficult to track for Itachi?

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    • No, Obito shouldn't be hard track, if Kakashi could track him.

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    • @Brain

      So I'd wager to guess you'd still give Itachi the benefit of the doubt of winning?

      Either way, do you mind giving a rundown of the fight as you see it?

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    • At the moment, I see it going down one of 3 ways:

      1. Itachi activates a clone uses it to eliminate the threat of Kamui and continously attacks Obito to drain his chakra, until he runs out.

      2. Activates genjutsu at an optimal moment, to stop Kamui momentarily, than attacks a vital.

      3. Activates a clone and has it attack Obito's blindspot, with kunais, without being caught.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      • Lol, It is an anomaly that apparently the anime agrees with.
      • And you haven't even mentioned that Obito's Sharingan can see Torune's insects, so when he pops up to warp Torune he is aware of the full-body usage. But alas, it's easier I guess to ignore/disregard lol.
      • Then that means the anime largely contradicted the manga as there are literally no instances in the manga where Obito didn't require touch to send person/s inside kamui dimension.
      • I see no hint of it which is why i'm not agreeing with it.
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    • Now that I think about it, Tsukuyomi should work against Tobi. The main reason Sasuke could break out it was, because of his enormous hatred. Tobi hasn't shown to have that hatred.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: Now that I think about it, Tsukuyomi should work against Tobi. The main reason Sasuke could break out it was, because of his enormous hatred. Tobi hasn't shown to have that hatred.

      The main reason is Itachi used a watered down version.

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    • Yeah you could be right, there's no indication Itachi used time dilation against Sasuke.

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    • Where's the proof that Itachi used a watered down version? The only thing I see in there that was less severe than a regular Tsukuyomi was the type of torture used.

      As in, Itachi was using Tsukuyomi to wear him down mentally, but not incapacitate, which makes sense.

      But there's no proof that it was weaker than a normal one. If the Tsukuyomi wasn't broken, Sasuke would have only experienced his eye getting plucked out. Not exactly the type of torture to put him down, so that means Itachi was leaving him able to fight but not necessarily expecting him to break out of it.

      After all, he seemed pretty surprised when Sasuke did break out.

      @Brainbrand, There's no indication against it either. In fact, it's more likely that Zetsu would notice if Itachi hit Sasuke with a Tsukuyomi that lasted more than a second. But instead, he just thought it was normal.

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    • @Squinty97

      There is an indication, Zetsu seemed surprised about something in the middle of the illusion. Either way, there's not enough evidence to say that Sasuke can beat it with Max time dilation and during the times it happens instantly.

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    • Obito said that Sasuke didn't actually see through a single one of those illusions and Tsukuyomi was one of those. Itachi made it weaker on purpose so Sasuke can break out of it whether it hurt Itachi or not. You keep forgetting that Itachi's goal was to not only make Sasuke lose Orochimaru and the Cursed Seal but to have Sasuke feel like he actually beat Itachi. It was made clear by Obito that Itachi even in that state could have killed Sasuke if he wanted to and that goes to show Itachi was clearly holding back some.

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    • @BrainBrand what chapter and page is this on? I only remember Zetsu being surprised that he broke out

      @Flatzone I'm not forgetting that, but having Sasuke weather through a Tsukuyomi (by making the torture less severe) and still beat Itachi serves his purpose. It wears Sasuke down while making Sasuke feel more powerful by enduring it.

      When Obito said Sasuke didn't see through his illusions, he means he didn't see Itachi's true intentions. A full powered Tsukuyomi still serves his true intentions if Sasuke could survive it. Besides, Sasuke has felt Tsukuyomi before, he'd be the one to know if it was weaker than normal

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    • @Squinty97

      Chapter 388 pg 2 or 3.

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    • Is that not him just noticing that Itachi hit him with Tsukuyomi? With no other reaction from him between that instance and the end os Tsukuyomi, there's nothing to say the passage of time between that point and the end.

      In any case, Zetsu made note of everytime Itachi seemed off or weaker or slower. He made no mention of Tsukuyomi taking longer than its usual second.

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    • It's probably him noticing the sweat on Sasuke's forehead or Sasuke's hand coming to his eye.

      If it was just a second like usual, with Max time dilation, it's unlikely Zetsu would have noticed the illusion, during the middle of the illusion. Tsukuyomi doesn't have to last only a second, the time is variable.

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      1. This tsukuyomi lacked the psychological strain compared to earlier ones, Itachi's plan for teen sasuke was that he pluck both eyes out so if he had finished the eye removal, tsukuyomi would've probably been over, plucking both eyes would take about 2 minutes tops? so 2 minutes in less than a second is still close to nothing compared to earlier usage of tsukyomi.

      Tsukuyomi also convinces the brain that the illusion pain/effect is real, evident when Izumi dies of old age in tsukuyomi which results to her actual body dying in reality. If Itachi wants to kill someone he can create effects that convinces their brain that they would actually die, like making someone think they're in a volcano, suffocating, the brain would stop respiration resulting in the persons' death in reality. Plucking a persons eyes seems like joke now eh?

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    • A FANDOM user
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