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  • Edo Minato vs Edo itachi won win

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    • Here you have to seal to win. Reaper death for Minato in which he will die as well. And totsuka for Itachi. So sealing for Minato would most likely be considered as a draw. I say Itachi Tsukuyomi + Totsuka.

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    • Toksuka blade isnt touching minato, i doubt it would touch the 4th raikage yet alone the fastest kage. Minato knows about the sharingan he was the hokage over the uchiha clan before the 9 tails attacked. So he would be sure not to get caught in genjutsu. Since this is edo tensei versions minato has access to kcm and kurama avatar. Flying raijin gets past susanoo and minato slams a giant rasengan in the back of susanoo.

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    • He would iniate eye contact knowing he has a bijju to snap him out of genjutsu, not knowing about tsukuyomi this would lead to his downfall. Destroying susanoo is pointless, as it can be recreated and it doesn't help in defeating an Edo.

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    • B was a perfect Jinchuriki who was told to avoid eye contact and not to get caught with Tsukuyomi.. why? Because the effects are too fast to be broken out of. It lasts literally 1 second and the damage is done. Also this fight relies on the other being sealed, because these are 2 edo's meaning a lasting fight would be a waste of time for either.

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    • Minato likely defeats Itachi.

      Minato literally blitzes Itachi at the start with Flying Raijin and Rasengan to back of Susanoo. The only counter I see for Itachi is Tsukuyomi but considering that, it would be extremely hard for Itachi to get Minato to look him in his eye. Minato also gets a normal speed buff without Flying Raijin due to Sage Mode or KCM.

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    • Common knowledge has that one must seal edo's to defeat them, so attacks like that leads to nowhere. He can't just blitz with flying raijin, Minato throws a kunai at Itachi he will naturally deflect it. Sharingan precog and susanoo counter's speed, though like i said the atks will be pointless unless he's aiming to seal. Itachi still takes this, he has the arsenal.

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    • Itachi's throwing speed, skill and ability are unmatched. Minato would never be able to get a Kunai behind him or even near him. But like was said before this is just a who gets sealed battle.

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    • @Jason

      Minato also has the 4 symbol seal, the reaper isn't the only one

      Then he can also use contract seal to break the edo contract

      And he can erect a powerful barrier (at least he said so when he wanted to contain Kurama, before Kushina did it)

      And he has toad summons, so he can use that toad where Jiraiya trapped a dude and a path of pain

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    • @Frwt

      • The four symbol seal : The user applies the seal's formula to an object or a human's body, sealing a large enemy or an evil spirit within them. - Itachi falls under neither category, and sealing a human body in a human body was never shown.
      • Contract Seal : To break the edo contract using contract seal, he'd have to find the summoner of the edo tensei, leaving the battlefield to do so would count as BFR, even if he did succeed on using the seal on Kabuto, he'd just give Itachi control over his own actions which is what he has here lol.
      • Erecting a Barrier: Doesn't really count as sealing, it's more like preventing himself from trying to win lol.
      • Toad Summons: Amaterasu bath?

      Itachi remains the winner via Tsukuyomi + Totsuka combo.

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    • @Jason

      • The four symbol seal : The user applies the seal's formula to an object or a human's body, sealing a large enemy or an evil spirit within them. - Itachi falls under neither category, and sealing a human body in a human body was never shown.

      You mean if Itachi was large he would be sealed? Or if he wasn't an enemy he couldn't be sealed?

      It doesn't need to be shown if it says it can do it

      • Contract Seal : To break the edo contract using contract seal, he'd have to find the summoner of the edo tensei, leaving the battlefield to do so would count as BFR, even if he did succeed on using the seal on Kabuto, he'd just give Itachi control over his own actions which is what he has here lol.

      I supposed they were in control of the jutsu like Madara was

      If not then we don't know if it also works on the other end cause all we know is that it breaks contracts, but given that there isn't enough info is a fair point

      • Erecting a Barrier: Doesn't really count as sealing, it's more like preventing himself from trying to win lol.

      Not for sealing, just in case you deemed it necessary for the seal

      • Toad Summons: Amaterasu bath?

      Itachi remains the winner via Tsukuyomi + Totsuka combo.

      It's a small toad, and it won't be used for attack, but for an option if Minato breaks Itachi's body, like everyone did aganist the other edo in the war arc

      Itachi remains the winner via Tsukuyomi + Totsuka combo.

      Wasn't my point, but ok, I think this doesn't work cause Minato is an edo so the physical damage of the Tsukuyomi won't affect him, and is alredy debatable if Itachi could put him under that

      Totsuka is the win condition that itachi has aganist edo, agree

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    • @Frwt

      • It wasn't shown and it didn't say it can be done either.
      • So what exactly would be Minato's plan after he uses the barrier? lol
      • Minato never displayed Toad Gourd Prison, and is not listed as a user, irrelevant for him. Besides the conditions for it to be activated is the toad must physically wrap it's tongue around Itachi then pull him in...in what world will that happen lol.
      • Tsukuyomi deals mental damage lol....it's not debatable, everyone knows not to make eye contact with sharingan users, yet a majority amount of top rank users stare at it, Hashirama and Tobirama included.
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    • Itachi has forced people into eye contact before.. he did it to Sasuke 3 times, Kakashi twice, and B too. Tsukuyomi doesn't need to have permanent damage on an Edo, it can simply be used to stun it so SoT can be launched without a chance of missing. Also Minato does not use Sage Mode for battle like that, he took too long to gather the natural energy for it and it ran out after one Rasengan which Kakashi implied wasn't that good. Minato wouldn't try to use Sage Mode in this battle anyway he only attemped it after learning that Senjutsu and Taijutsu were the only things that worked against a TTJ.

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    • @Jason

      • It wasn't shown and it didn't say it can be done either.

      It was shown sealing something better than just an human, and the description doesn't restrict it to tailed beasts

      • So what exactly would be Minato's plan after he uses the barrier? lol

      Nothing, we already agree that he doesn't need it to make a seal

      • Minato never displayed Toad Gourd Prison, and is not listed as a user, irrelevant for him. Besides the conditions for it to be activated is the toad must physically wrap it's tongue around Itachi then pull him in...in what world will that happen lol.

      If Itachi can move sure, but it's the same as the paper seal that the alliance used on the edo, first you destroy the body, then you apply the seal

      We don't need a panel of Minato summoning that specific toad, the fact that he has a contract with the toads is enough, but Minato is a also a sage and Jiraiya's disciple, so he knows what's up in the toad world


      • Tsukuyomi deals mental damage lol....it's not debatable, everyone knows not to make eye contact with sharingan users, yet a majority amount of top rank users stare at it, Hashirama and Tobirama included.

      That mental damage was healed by a medic, so it's physical damage that affected the brain, so it's not a problem for an edo

      Yeah they make eye contact, I don't know why, but if the make it I guess it's implied that they are pretty much immune to the standard sharingan genjutsu? But the second guy along with Minato are sensors, so they can sense the build up of the chakra in the eye (like when Sasuke tried to get juubi jin Obito with amaterasu) and they'll know something is up

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    • Frwt wrote: It was shown sealing something better than just an human, and the description doesn't restrict it to tailed beasts

      Tailed beast and humans are not the same thing. Anyways you have to prove that it can if you want to continue this.

      We don't need a panel of Minato summoning that specific toad, the fact that he has a contract with the toads is enough, but Minato is a also a sage and Jiraiya's disciple, so he knows what's up in the toad world

      We can't go around distributing abilities to people when they clearly don't have it listed. Why do you think it's not listed?

      That mental damage was healed by a medic, so it's physical damage that affected the brain, so it's not a problem for an edo

      What? you called it both mental and physical in the same sentence 😂💀? it's just psychological damage dude lol, physical damage would mean Tsukuyomi is tangible and bitch slapped Minato on the brain.

      Yeah they make eye contact, I don't know why, but if the make it I guess it's implied that they are pretty much immune to the standard sharingan genjutsu? But the second guy along with Minato are sensors, so they can sense the build up of the chakra in the eye (like when Sasuke tried to get juubi jin Obito with amaterasu) and they'll know something is up

      I don't necessarily agree with that logic, i mean everyone who got caught in genjutsu had to look and according to your statement that would've implied they're immune to base genjutsu, which is not the case (orochiamru, deidara etc). Besides this is tsukuyomi, something Minato doesn't know about and something way beyond base genjutsu. The sensing chakra buildup has flaws to it:

      • Sensing isn't an active ability, you have to manually activate it when needed, and the purpose of sensing is locating opponents mostly so why would he sense when Itachi would be right infront of him?
      • Sensing chakra buildup doesn't tell the sensor what ability the target will be using. So...he's doomed still lmao.
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    • Frwt wrote: It was shown sealing something better than just an human, and the description doesn't restrict it to tailed beasts

      Tailed beast and humans are not the same thing. Anyways you have to prove that it can if you want to continue this.

      We don't need a panel of Minato summoning that specific toad, the fact that he has a contract with the toads is enough, but Minato is a also a sage and Jiraiya's disciple, so he knows what's up in the toad world

      We can't go around distributing abilities to people when they clearly don't have it listed. Why do you think it's not listed?

      That mental damage was healed by a medic, so it's physical damage that affected the brain, so it's not a problem for an edo

      What? you called it both mental and physical in the same sentence 😂💀? it's just psychological damage dude lol, physical damage would mean Tsukuyomi is tangible and bitch slapped Minato on the brain.

      Yeah they make eye contact, I don't know why, but if the make it I guess it's implied that they are pretty much immune to the standard sharingan genjutsu? But the second guy along with Minato are sensors, so they can sense the build up of the chakra in the eye (like when Sasuke tried to get juubi jin Obito with amaterasu) and they'll know something is up

      I don't necessarily agree with that logic, i mean everyone who got caught in genjutsu had to look and according to your statement that would've implied they're immune to base genjutsu, which is not the case (orochiamru, deidara etc). Besides this is tsukuyomi, something Minato doesn't know about and something way beyond base genjutsu. The sensing chakra buildup has flaws to it:

      • Sensing isn't an active ability, you have to manually activate it when needed, and the purpose of sensing is locating opponents mostly so why would he sense when Itachi would be right infront of him?
      • Sensing chakra buildup doesn't tell the sensor what ability the target will be using. So...he's doomed still lmao.
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    • If anything, Minato has the advantage, not Itachi. Minato's speed is more than enough to blitz Itachi. Some of Minato's kunai may get blocked but that won't matter because if Minato runs circles around Itachi and throw Kunai directly at him and above him, Minato can teleport to any of these Kunai mid flight and literally put himself in various blind spots, leaving Itachi open to attack. Minato can then Rasengan him from there. If Itachi resorts to Susanoo, Minato could mark it and teleport it away, likely every time he manifests it without needing to remark it.

      All it takes is for Minato make physical contact or remotely control the seal to mark Itachi and it will be pretty much good game from there. Also, if Edo Tensei are immune to Infinite Tsukuyomi, what's to say they aren't immune to the inferior Tsukuyomi?

      Even if Minato gets stabbed, he could just teleport to one of his Kunai elsewhere and literally heal from the damage. The sword can't seal him fast enough to keep him from teleporting to a new area.

      Regardless if he enters Sage Mode or not, he has access to Negative Emotions Sensing and can use it to sense evil intent coming from Itachi and his attacks.

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    • @Jason

      Tailed beast and humans are not the same thing. Anyways you have to prove that it can if you want to continue this.

      It's proved by the description, it says a large enemy, it doesn't specify tailed beast, but it worked on a tailed beast, the problem would be justifing it working on one of those when it was only used on an human or a summon, but we have the inverse situation

      We can't go around distributing abilities to people when they clearly don't have it listed. Why do you think it's not listed?

      There is listed what they used, Minato never summoned that toad, so he doesn't have it listed, not beacause he can't summon it

      What? you called it both mental and physical in the same sentence 😂💀? it's just psychological damage dude lol, physical damage would mean Tsukuyomi is tangible and bitch slapped Minato on the brain.

      It being mental doesn't mean that it's spiritual, only that affected the brain, it can affect it physically or spiritually (chakra? psiche?)

      The fact that it was healed by medical ninjutsu means that it's physical damage

      I don't necessarily agree with that logic, i mean everyone who got caught in genjutsu had to look and according to your statement that would've implied they're immune to base genjutsu, which is not the case (orochiamru, deidara etc). Besides this is tsukuyomi, something Minato doesn't know about and something way beyond base genjutsu. The sensing chakra buildup has flaws to it:

      • Sensing isn't an active ability, you have to manually activate it when needed, and the purpose of sensing is locating opponents mostly so why would he sense when Itachi would be right infront of him?
      • Sensing chakra buildup doesn't tell the sensor what ability the target will be using. So...he's doomed still lmao.

      I know that "the immunity" shouldn't work with Tsukuyomi, that was a response on why Hashirama and Tobirama looked them in the eye, if that's not why then Idk

      Sensing is useful in combact and Karin could use it to detect genjustu, so Minato has no reason to not use it giving that he's fighting an uchiha

      It doesn't tell him what Itachi is gonna do, but it's not difficoult to make 2+2 when you know that an uchiha is building chakra in his eye

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: Also, if Edo Tensei are immune to Infinite Tsukuyomi, what's to say they aren't immune to the inferior Tsukuyomi?

      Even if Minato gets stabbed, he could just teleport to one of his Kunai elsewhere and literally heal from the damage. The sword can't seal him fast enough to keep him from teleporting to a new area.

      • Edo tensei were immune to alot of thing, like the chakra drain the divine was having on the alliance only the edo's were ignored whilst everyong else was being sucked dry. Also, Kotoamatsukami, Kabuto's audio genjutsu and Sasuke's genjutsu all worked on Edo Itachi so no.
      • Victims stabbed by the blade were just shown to retain the ability to speak nothing further.

      Regardless if he enters Sage Mode or not, he has access to Negative Emotions Sensing and can use it to sense evil intent coming from Itachi and his attacks.

      Sorry not listed as a user lmao, and NE from itachi lol wow.

      Frwt wrote: It's proved by the description, it says a large enemy, it doesn't specify tailed beast, but it worked on a tailed beast

      sealing a large enemy or an evil spirit within them - It doesn't specify Human either, but why would the writer go out of his way and state large enemy when he could've just state enemy? there's a reason for that hehe.

      There is listed what they used, Minato never summoned that toad, so he doesn't have it listed, not beacause he can't summon it

      So Itachi can use Izanagi, he can use genjutsu to control jinchuriki like Obito did....wait a minute, therefore base genjutsu is enough here then? :D

      The fact that it was healed by medical ninjutsu means that it's physical damage

      So tsukuyomi is tangible is what you're saying? cuz you have to be tangible to deal physical damage in a majority of cases. Tsukuyomi is an illusion, how can illusion be physical? lol. It's stated Tsunade healed the psychological damages from Kakashi and Sasuke.

      Sensing is useful in combact and Karin could use it to detect genjustu, so Minato has no reason to not use it giving that he's fighting an uchiha

      It doesn't tell him what Itachi is gonna do, but it's not difficoult to make 2+2 when you know that an uchiha is building chakra in his eye

      • Karin was just a support character in that battle where she can afford to freely use sensing without being attacked, and Minato having a bijju to snap him out of genjutsu is a reason why he won't sense and trust that he won't fall prey to genjutsu, this will encourage him to look.
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    • sealing a large enemy or an evil spirit within them - It doesn't specify Human either, but why would the writer go out of his way and state large enemy when he could've just state enemy? there's a reason for that hehe.

      And I remmbered that Minato actually sealed Kushina's chakra along his own with the seal, so it's possible, plus it's not an "out of his way" if it can seal large things it can seal smaller ones, it's to say "look it can seal large things" but large isn't an absolute measure

      So Itachi can use Izanagi, he can use genjutsu to control jinchuriki like Obito did....wait a minute, therefore base genjutsu is enough here then? :D

      Sure? Altrough it's a weak argument cause it's not really the same, Itachi only has knowledge on Izanagi it's not the same justu as Izanami, but you can go for it

      If you can prove that the genjutsu who controlled yagura can be used in battle and only requires a short eye contact sure, but to control a perfect jinchuriki that doesn't seem the case

      So tsukuyomi is tangible is what you're saying? cuz you have to be tangible to deal physical damage in a majority of cases. Tsukuyomi is an illusion, how can illusion be physical? lol. It's stated Tsunade healed the psychological damages from Kakashi and Sasuke.

      What chapter was called psychological damage?

      • Karin was just a support character in that battle where she can afford to freely use sensing without being attacked, and Minato having a bijju to snap him out of genjutsu is a reason why he won't sense and trust that he won't fall prey to genjutsu, this will encourage him to look.

      You just need to knead chakra to sense, it's easly used in battle, Mu was doing it

      Sensing helps you recognizing a genjutsu the bijuu helps you get out of it, they complete each other

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    • Minato has a lot of sealing jutsus not just the reaper death seal and itachi is good at deflecting kunais but we all know minato spreads multiple Kunis around the area before going in to battle and he as Kcm which amps everything up. Itachi cannot really do anything except his susano and tsukiyomi and also genjutsu Is pointless

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    • Frwt wrote: And I remmbered that Minato actually sealed Kushina's chakra along his own with the seal, so it's possible, plus it's not an "out of his way" if it can seal large things it can seal smaller ones, it's to say "look it can seal large things" but large isn't an absolute measure

      It her chakra, not her...You're speculating, people ignore facts and proceed to speculate whenever they wanna be biased. Your logic is ok, but it's speculation nonetheless, mostly where you categories Humans and Tailed beasts as the same thing.


      Sure? Altrough it's a weak argument cause it's not really the same, Itachi only has knowledge on Izanagi it's not the same justu as Izanami, but you can go for it

      • It's the same argument you're using. It's not listed under the characters abilities section but because of so and so reason they should be able to perform it. It's assumptions, speculations. Use actualities.

      You're adding these abilities because you know he can't win with what's shown,stated for him.

      What chapter was called psychological damage?

      [1]

      You just need to knead chakra to sense, it's easly used in battle, Mu was doing it Sensing helps you recognizing a genjutsu the bijuu helps you get out of it, they complete each other

      How minato fights>>>>What you think Besides drop that already, it's tsukuyomi.....he can't break it, neither can his bijju. Itachi knowing about Minato would aim to end the fight as quick as possible.

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    • It her chakra, not her...You're speculating, people ignore facts and proceed to speculate whenever they wanna be biased. Your logic is ok, but it's speculation nonetheless, mostly where you categories Humans and Tailed beasts as the same thing.

      Chackra is what matters, it will undo the edo justu if Minato just takes the chakra; but anyway if the logic worked why would it be speculation? You're going on the fact that it didn't was used on an human to say it is, but the description doesn't restrict it to tailed beasts

      • It's the same argument you're using. It's not listed under the characters abilities section but because of so and so reason they should be able to perform it. It's assumptions, speculations. Use actualities.

      You're adding these abilities because you know he can't win with what's shown,stated for him.

      You're making these rules, if you just accept something if that thing happened then tell me how totsuka will seal edo Minato with the fox beacause we've never seen totsuka seal a tailed beasts, how we know it can contain its chakra if it never did?


      I'm not adding these abilityes, you are the one who's restricting him cause "he never used it so he doesn't have it"

      Sure he can't defeat him without a sealing jutsu, Itachi is an edo, what kind of logic is that? KCM Naruto can't defeat 5 year old edo-Naruto without a sealing jutsu

      [1]

      And in the cut part Jiraiya says "and he's blacked out from whatever jutsu Itachi used on him" meaning that Jiraiya doesn't know what Itachi used, still he negates a physical damage but gives him a mental one, who giving by exclusion remains only the psycological factor, but this goes aganist the fact that Tsunade could heal them, so my pick here would be that the translation is a bit off in saying "physiaclly not" first beacause Sasuke got his bones broken and Jiraiya previously states this, second cause I checked on a good translator and they don't metion a lack of physical damage on the mental sentence, here: https://mangahelpers.com/t/gottheim/releases/11682

      You're free to deny a non autorized translation and continue on the viz though

      How minato fights>>>>What you think Besides drop that already, it's tsukuyomi.....he can't break it, neither can his bijju. Itachi knowing about Minato would aim to end the fight as quick as possible.

      One example of not sensing in a situation who wasn't even a battle and didn't need sensing isn't indicative of a normal fight who needs it

      I wasn't arguing for him being able to break tsukuyomi though?

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    • @Frwt

      Certain users wanna take the databook statements literally when it is advantageous to their arguments, but when a DB statement disadvantages one of their argument, they ignore/disregard lol. And not forgetting the holes in the DB to begin with.

      Well, you are certainly right @Frwt. The 4 symbols seal can seal Itachi. As the literal statement includes "..a large enemy". Itachi isn't short, so he can be considered a large enemy, therefore he can be sealed. See, I'm using the literal DB argument lol.

      I made this argument before, but I'm curious to see the response to this point. What can Itachi do if Minato uses FTG level 2 attack? And yes people, Minato can warp away Susanoo with FTG.

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    • @Ninja

      Lol, true


      I made this argument before, but I'm curious to see the response to this point. What can Itachi do if Minato uses FTG level 2 attack? And yes people, Minato can warp away Susanoo with FTG.

      If he doesn't have the susanoo up nothing, FTG was developed by Tobirama to fight Uchihas, it counters their ability to read movements

      Yeah he can chose to chakra link and not chakra link, so he can warp it away, funny thing Kurama isn't restricted here, so a giant rasengan / avatar attack also clears it, I didn't want to discuss the actual match-up cause I think it's an absolute stomp in favor of Minato, but I at least wanted to clear up on the fact that Minato can seal Itachi

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    • Frwt wrote: anyway if the logic worked why would it be speculation? You're going on the fact that it didn't was used on an human to say it is, but the description doesn't restrict it to tailed beasts

      • It's speculation because it's not facts. The reason why they said Large animals is because of the sealing gate used to restrict the targets, the 9 tails can fit a hand through the crease, if that can happen Itachi can just waltz through rendering the seal useless.. gg. [1]

      You're making these rules, if you just accept something if that thing happened then tell me how totsuka will seal edo Minato with the fox beacause we've never seen totsuka seal a tailed beasts, how we know it can contain its chakra if it never did?

      Cuz it sealed a bijju level nagato and as the statements of totsuka implies it seals whatever it pierces.

      so my pick here would be that the translation is a bit off in saying "physiaclly not" first beacause Sasuke got his bones broken and Jiraiya previously states this, second cause I checked on a good translator and they don't metion a lack of physical damage on the mental sentence, here: https://mangahelpers.com/t/gottheim/releases/11682

      Woah lol, you don't get to pick, you get to accept or don't. This is from VIZ, which is offical translation deal with it lol. A good translator? from a random site? ok we don't do that here. [2]

      One example of not sensing in a situation who wasn't even a battle and didn't need sensing isn't indicative of a normal fight who needs it

      If it wasn't a battle why did he have a rasengan charged? anyways you have no point as usual. Itachi oneshots with tsukuyomi then seals him the end.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Well, you are certainly right @Frwt. The 4 symbols seal can seal Itachi. As the literal statement includes "..a large enemy". Itachi isn't short, so he can be considered a large enemy, therefore he can be sealed. See, I'm using the literal DB argument lol.

      So the opposite of large is short. OK.

      What can Itachi do if Minato uses FTG level 2 attack? And yes people, Minato can warp away Susanoo with FTG.

      Uhhh susanoo?, he has to mark susanoo then warp it away. the FTG 2 atk is a rasengan to the opponent from above so how will he do the marking? and how is this defeating an EDO?

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    • Minato can warp away unmarked chakra with FTG:Guiding thunder then use FTG:second step with a kunai. He doesn't need to mark Itachi lol. Again what can Itachi do if Minato uses FTG level 2 attack?

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou
      Jason of the Mangekyou removed this reply because:
      bs
      16:18, March 23, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • process of using Guiding thunder That's alot of signs. And it's for incoming projectiles too so this is a no no. Susanoo remains the answer.

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      • It's speculation because it's not facts. The reason why they said Large animals is because of the sealing gate used to restrict the targets, the 9 tails can fit a hand through the crease, if that can happen Itachi can just waltz through rendering the seal useless.. gg. [1]

      It's figurative, the fox is a chakra spirit, it sended his chakra trough the seal already, what is keeping him from sending all of it trough the gate? Why Naruto needed to open the seal and didn't fight the fox by just entering the room? Where were Minato and Kushina? Where they part of the gate? Just why?

      Cuz it sealed a bijju level nagato and as the statements of totsuka implies it seals whatever it pierces.

      From when a chakra cloack is = to the yin half of the strongest bijuu?

      Woah lol, you don't get to pick, you get to accept or don't. This is from VIZ, which is offical translation deal with it lol. A good translator? from a random site? ok we don't do that here. [2]

      Already answered this:

      You're free to deny a non autorized translation and continue on the viz though

      If it wasn't a battle why did he have a rasengan charged? anyways you have no point as usual. Itachi oneshots with tsukuyomi then seals him the end.

      They were trying to kill Zetsu without killing Obito, they need jutsu to do that, clearly it's not a normal battle, if you wanna play with the words sure I guess it's tecnically a battle, now would be good if you tried to understand the semantic instead of taking things litterally, this is why you end up with "totsuka seals the juubi" "4 symbol seal only seals big enemies, small enemyes and big allyes are immune" "2 strong ninja vs a guy who can do nothing is a battle"

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    • Summary for you: ^^

      • states Tsukuyomi deals physical damage
      • Refuses to use official translation by VIZ, instead wants to use some random site.
      • Refuses to acknowledge how sensors operate, in that the don't sense in the middle of a battle
      • Shoves abilities not displayed by the character for him to use here.

      Give me one reason to continue this 💀💀😅

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: process of using Guiding thunder That's alot of signs. And it's for incoming projectiles too so this is a no no. Susanoo remains the answer.

      Where does it say that guiding thunder is only for projectiles? Also, Minato can use conventional FTG, although he would need to make contact. Lastly, how would Itachi know to put up Susanoo from a kunai coming at him?

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      • states Tsukuyomi deals physical damage
      • Refuses to use official translation by VIZ, instead wants to use some random site.

      You can use it, this is the third time I'm saying it, I've offered reasons to why I think it's wrong, those trasnlators don't care to make an exact translation, they care about translating 500 pages in a week or something so it's normal that they can make errors Idk why you are so agry about this, fan tranlsation can be more precise cause these people care about the exact meaning, I also explained how it would work with the problems, but anyway you can go for the viz one I've not said you can't

      • Refuses to acknowledge how sensors operate, in that the don't sense in the middle of a battle

      Forgot Mu again? The fact that Karin isn't a fighter doesn't mean that sensory can't be used in battle

      • Shoves abilities not displayed by the character for him to use here.

      Summoning jutsu is an ability he displayed though...

      Give me one reason to continue this 💀💀😅

      It's on you if you wanna reply, I'm convinced of what I said

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Where does it say that guiding thunder is only for projectiles? Also, Minato can use conventional FTG, although he would need to make contact. Lastly, how would Itachi know to put up Susanoo from a kunai coming at him?

      It warps anything that comes into contact with it and the pic supports it. He would just deflect that Kunai...

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      It warps anything that comes into contact with it and the pic supports it. He would just deflect that Kunai...

      So, it doesn't only warp projectiles, great, so it works on Susanoo as well. How would Itachi know to deflect it? Itachi always dodges attacks like that.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: So, it doesn't only warp projectiles, great, so it works on Susanoo as well. How would Itachi know to deflect it? Itachi always dodges attacks like that.

      Do you not see how it's used? the barrier activates and stays in one place, for susanoo to get teleported it'd have to come into contact with the barrier. How would he know to deflect Sasuke's shurikenjutsu, he always dodges attacks like that. See this as a way to put his shuriken skills to use.

      @Frwt, I showed you a scan of how minato uses his sensory techniques, Mu is different, so is everyone. And you're forgetting my point on chakra buildup, he will not know what jutsu is coming, given that base genjutsu doesn't need that level of chakra buildup as MS techs.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Do you not see how it's used? the barrier activates and stays in one place, for susanoo to get teleported it'd have to come into contact with the barrier. How would he know to deflect Sasuke's shurikenjutsu, he always dodges attacks like that. See this as a way to put his shuriken skills to use.

      All Minato would need is to get in range for guiding thunder then, proof for "...barrier activates and stays in one place...". You didn't explain how Itachi would know to deflect the kunai instead on dodging it. And no, one kunai is not the same as a shurikenjutsu shootout.

      All I'm seeing is Minato throwing his kunai for FTG:second step, Itachi dodging and having no counter when it activates.

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    • @Frwt, I showed you a scan of how minato uses his sensory techniques, Mu is different, so is everyone. And you're forgetting my point on chakra buildup, he will not know what jutsu is coming, given that base genjutsu doesn't need that level of chakra buildup as MS techs.

      No, the scan didn't show "how Minato use sensory techniques", that's your deduction from it, and it's not a valid one cause sensory wasn't needed there

      Ok so you agree that Tsukuyomi gets sensed by sensory, that's a step, now how you know genjutsu doesn't get sensed? Just not requiring the same chakra as Tsukuyomi doesn't prove it cause Tsukuyomi was never stated to be the limit of chakra build-up that can be sensed, I also can't prove the other way around, in fact I didn't make a point for resisting normal genjutsu, but if you have a prof of it go on

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    • About the physical damage of Tsukuyomi not affecting an Edo, it's probably wrong considering that Hanzo was in pain from cutting his own stomach.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: All Minato would need is to get in range for guiding thunder then, proof for "...barrier activates and stays in one place...". You didn't explain how Itachi would know to deflect the kunai instead on dodging it. And no, one kunai is not the same as a shurikenjutsu shootout.

      All I'm seeing is Minato throwing his kunai for FTG:second step, Itachi dodging and having no counter when it activates.

      the proof is all in this pic, Minato weaves the signs, the barrier appears and stays there. Itachi would need to jump to the barrier, which would mean he'd get transported elsewhere, or Minato activating the barrier infront of himself would mean he'd just fall in lmao. He can still activate susanoo even if he dodges. Why would he dodge when he can stay there and deflect.

      @FRWT.. Ok hypothetical situation, Minato senses chakra buildup in Itachi's eye, what now? he'd be on guard,looking at Itachi for incoming attacks...this works in Itachi's favour.

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    • @Jason

      Just because the barrier warped that attack, doesn't mean Itachi needs to jump into the barrier, Minato just needs to be in range. How would Minato fall into a barrier in front of himself? Itachi would still activate susanoo even if he dodges? Lol. How? FTG is instant, Minato used FTG:second step to outpace Obito's Kamui intangibility, which is near-instant. If Minato can do that, he can definitely outpace Itachi.

      The issue is Itachi knowing to deflect the kunai and knowing to use Susanoo. Can you provide proof that he does know?

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    • @FRWT.. Ok hypothetical situation, Minato senses chakra buildup in Itachi's eye, what now? he'd be on guard,looking at Itachi for incoming attacks...this works in Itachi's favour.

      Nothing really? He'll be wary of eye genjutsu, why it favors Itachi?

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    • On the other hand you would need to provide proof that he doesn't, same as the SoT vs Juubi thread you are speculating.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Just because the barrier warped that attack, doesn't mean Itachi needs to jump into the barrier, Minato just needs to be in range. How would Minato fall into a barrier in front of himself?

      Manga only has it warping away something coming into contact with it what are you on about, i don't understand. Minato needs to be in range?

      Itachi would still activate susanoo even if he dodges? Lol. How? FTG is instant, Minato used FTG:second step to outpace Obito's Kamui intangibility, which is near-instant. If Minato can do that, he can definitely outpace Itachi. The issue is Itachi knowing to deflect the kunai and knowing to use Susanoo. Can you provide proof that he does know?

      FTG is instant, Minato's striking speed isnt', after he teleports he'd have to strike.. That speaks to Obito reaction speed then. It's a fact that Itachi won't be able to move out in time to evade FTG Lvl2, even Ay failed to, so susanoo is his best bet or crow substitution, he also knows about Minato as well so..

      @Frwt: I told you sensory only tells you about chakra buildup nothing more, would that be the best time for him to avoid eye contact? Sounds like a perfect scenario for Amaterasu to be used.

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    • Itachi could simply put Minato in a subtle genjutsu, there's no reason to assume the nine tails would know Minato is in a genjutsu, unless it was obvious.

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    • @Frwt: I told you sensory only tells you about chakra buildup nothing more, would that be the best time for him to avoid eye contact? Sounds like a perfect scenario for Amaterasu to be used.

      Amaterasu isn't a problem though, even if Minato gets tagged by it he can just teleport the flames away or teleport himself and not the flames

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    • @Jason

      I don't understand. You said Minato would fall into the barrier if it was in front of him. I don't see how. It's a barrier, the barrier space must have a range, that's all.

      As I previously mentioned, Minato outpaced Kamui's intangibility which is near-instant. Which was with his rasengan strike. Itachi won't have time to react let alone put up Susanoo.

      Itachi may know of Minato, but that doesn't mean he knows FTG's inner workings. Even Minato's student Obito didn't know about FTG:second step.

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    • FlatZone wrote: On the other hand you would need to provide proof that he doesn't, same as the SoT vs Juubi thread you are speculating.

      ???

      Ninja Of War wrote: I don't understand. You said Minato would fall into the barrier if it was in front of him. I don't see how. It's a barrier, the barrier space must have a range, that's all.

      That was a joke.The jutsu doesn't work the way you're describing, you're free to prove me wrong with showings, statements.

      As I previously mentioned, Minato outpaced Kamui's intangibility which is near-instant. Which was with his rasengan strike. Itachi won't have time to react let alone put up Susanoo.

      OBITO has to react to use Kamui, him failing doesn't mean itachi would

      Frwt wrote: Amaterasu isn't a problem though, even if Minato gets tagged by it he can just teleport the flames away or teleport himself and not the flames

      Finally you make a valid point.

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    • Finally you make a valid point.

      Well, thanks

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    • @Jason

      I must prove why Minato won't fall FTG:guiding thunder if it's used in front of him? Lol, that is a joke.

      Again, the point is that Obito's reaction and usage with Kamui intangibility is near-instant, and Minato outpaced that. Is Itachi's reactions and jutsu faster than near-instant?

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    • @Ninja Itachi reacted to lightning and brought up his Susanoo in that time.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: @Ninja Itachi reacted to lightning and brought up his Susanoo in that time.

      Itachi never reacted to lightning, he just reacted to Sasuke's hand motion at best.

      Also, Susanoo can be conjured instantly, even if we are unable to see it. Sasuke conjured Susanoo and blocked Danzo's punch and it wasn't even visible until the next panel, even though we could see Danzo punch having been stopped right in front of Sasuke.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: I must prove why Minato won't fall FTG:guiding thunder if it's used in front of him? Lol, that is a joke.

      I told you that was a joke. Now prove Guiding thunder works the way you're describing. For a stance, i'm saying it warps away whatever comes into contact with it and it's conjured and remains in a set position waiting for the incoming attack. You either agree with that or prove it wrong.

      Again, the point is that Obito's reaction and usage with Kamui intangibility is near-instant, and Minato outpaced that. Is Itachi's reactions and jutsu faster than near-instant?

      With the state he countered Kirin in, i would say a healthier version of Itachi should have way better reaction.

      Princeharris1993 wrote: Itachi never reacted to lightning, he just reacted to Sasuke's hand motion at best.

      Jokes on you because Itachi was staring at the lightning the whole time.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote:

      Itachi never reacted to lightning, he just reacted to Sasuke's hand motion at best.

      Also, Susanoo can be conjured instantly, even if we are unable to see it. Sasuke conjured Susanoo and blocked Danzo's punch and it wasn't even visible until the next panel, even though we could see Danzo punch having been stopped right in front of Sasuke.

      If Itachi conjured Susanoo instantly, but did it so late that Sasuke didn't see it, than that means Itachi didn't react to Sasuke's hand, but Kirin itself.

      It could be that Sasuke only manifested that bone piece in front of his body.

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    • I am looking at the panels and sequences right now. Itachi can't even see Sasuke from on top of that large structure he can only hear his voice. Itachi only had any reactions whatsoever to the lighting changing. Itachi could barely see AT ALL at this point. He reacted to the lightning strike and not Sasuke moving his hand. Itachi was able to react to the strike and activate Susanoo so fast he could survive the strike(the very strike that demolished the Uchiha hide-out). Minato is fast for sure but to assume that means he can blitz somebody of Itachi's speed is only that, an assumption more akin to head canon. Also Minato throwing out multiple Kunai won't help him as Itachi will still knock them all out of the air near instantly. Itachi was an avid researcher of Shibobi and Shinobi history and to assume he wouldn't know about FTG which is the Second Hokage's technique and then the Fourths Technique is wild. Itachi knew about the Orochi technique Orochimaru had and he even knew about Sage Mode among other thing, so I think its more safe to say he would know how FTG works. Now if this was a battle with a no knowledge stipulation then that would make a big difference.

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    • Also Minato has been reacted to after using FTG, Killer Bee reacted to him and Raikage thought he could react to him him as long as he knew where the kunai were at.

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    • Raikage also wasn't paying attention, he failed to count all the Kunai so Minato was able to get to one up on the tree and trick him. Killer B did indeed hold the sword to Minato's stomach and Minato had no idea until he looked down. Like I said before though FTG is the main reason Minato is able to blitz some people and thats mainly because they have no idea how the jutsu works and that is instantaneous. Itachi would surely know because it would be out of character for him to not know of the technique and its workings.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: Also Minato has been reacted to after using FTG, Killer Bee reacted to him and Raikage thought he could react to him him as long as he knew where the kunai were at.

      Killer Bee had his sword out even before Minato teleported behind him. So, he did react to it, but anticipated it.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Killer Bee had his sword out even before Minato teleported behind him. So, he did react to it, but anticipated it.

      Killer Bee had his sword out, but he didn't have it behind his back, until Minato was already there, but you may be right about him anticipating it. It wouldn't be to hard to do, Minato like 95% of the time goes for the back.

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    • @Brain

      There were multiple cues for Itachi to predict Kirin. It's one of the Sharingan's abilities to predict attacks, and Itachi used it perfectly. So it wasn't reaction speed, it was prediction. Tho have to give Itachi credit for the timing. One of the reasons Sasuke probably didn't see Itachi put up Susanoo was due to the brightness of the Kirin attack.

      @Jason

      I'm simply saying that guiding thunder has a barrier space range, and that Minato would need to be in range to use it on Itachi's Susanoo. It doesn't have the same range as Kakashi's Kamui as per it's shown usage. I don't understand what you get from arguing this point.

      As my point above states, that wasn't reaction speed, it was prediction and timing. Which Itachi won't have against Minato's FTG:second step.

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    • @Ninja

      Assuming that Itachi can't react to Kirin, which is 1/1000 of a second, Itachi had to activate Susanoo before Sasuke hand reached the end, if he was predicting it, but we see that he activates it afterwards.

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    • @Brain

      Actually if you see the Kirin attack, the Kirin-dragon first forms and then goes up into the sky with Sasuke's hand motion, before crashing down. He probably activated it then, the panel seems to white-out so that's likely the reason for not seeing the activation. Also probably author motivated for the Susanoo reveal later.

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    • @Ninja But right after it goes up into the sky, Sasuke says "Begone with the thunderclap", so he couldn't activated it right after Kirin goes up in the sky.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: I'm simply saying that guiding thunder has a barrier space range, and that Minato would need to be in range to use it on Itachi's Susanoo. It doesn't have the same range as Kakashi's Kamui as per it's shown usage. I don't understand what you get from arguing this point.

      The dude can just conjure up another susanoo lmao, that's assuming he can use guiding thunder like that.

      As my point above states, that wasn't reaction speed, it was prediction and timing. Which Itachi won't have against Minato's FTG:second step.

      So he predicted Kirin? I won't bother asking for proof, the Itachi hate is real. Headcanon

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    • He can't predict Kirin as it wasn't made of chakra, it was only controlled and aimed with a smidgen of chakra, Itachi even says he couldn't see any chakra left from Sasuke so he thought Sasuke was bluffing. Itachi only reacted to the lighting change, as the sky got brighter. Itachi quite simply reacted to it albeit only JUST in time. Otherwise he would have died right there.

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    • @Jason

      Susanoo can't be reformed easily, as per the wiki article, the user needs to first disperse it or evolve it to the next level. It's not near-instant.

      Are you suggesting Itachi is not intelligent enough, not proficient enough with the Sharingan and has hearing loss to:

      1) Hear the multiple dialogue cues from Sasuke, including the name of the technique "Kirin".

      2) See Sasuke shoot Chidori into the sky (one user commented on Itachi seeing chakra, but conveniently forgot about this lol).

      3) See the Kirin-dragon forming.

      4) See Sasuke's hand movement.

      5) See the Kirin-dragon go up into the clouds.

      6) Hearing the final dialogue from Sasuke "begone with thunder/thunderclap".

      So, pure reaction is not true. Headcanon? Lol, that actually happened. Feel free to backup any criticism of these events with evidence please. Please don't ignore/disregard evidence and please don't have fun by ignoring context lol.

      @Brain

      I'm not sure when Itachi put up Susanoo, as the reveal was meant for later, so the actual formation could have happened off-panel.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Susanoo can't be reformed easily, as per the wiki article, the user needs to first disperse it or evolve it to the next level. It's not near-instant.

      Since minato will be taking it away, Itachi just has to form one like it wasn't even there before, well that's assuming he can take it away with the guiding thunder.

      Are you suggesting Itachi is not intelligent enough, not proficient enough with the Sharingan

      This is you by saying he predicted it and not reacted.

      So, pure reaction is not true. Headcanon? Lol, that actually happened. Feel free to backup any criticism of these events with evidence please.

      I'm sure you're familiar with the 'shooter pointing a gun' example used on this very topic, Sasuke explaining the attack can be seen as the shooter telling the victim that he's about to shoot him, Sasuke lowering down his hand can be see as the shooter pulling the trigger. But according to the logic used here that means the victim can dodge or counter the attack, since it was telegraphed...lmao.

      • The sound argument is irrelevant, since Sasuke lowered his hand after he finished speaking.
      • The hand argument is also irrelevant, since Itachi was staring at Kirin and not Sasuke's hand. gg
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    • @Jason

      Lol, making light of the fact that it is not simple to reform Susanoo, nice. I'm not the one suggesting Itachi can't use the predictive power of the Sharingan or that he can't hear. Lol. I'm not seeing any evidence that the events I pointed out didn't occur, tho that was expected.

      The "shooter pointing a gun" example illustrates how one can be faster/countering than the "shooter" but not faster than the bullet. If the shooter tells you he's gonna shoot you in 2 seconds, and your action to put up a shield is 1 second, you have to time your action to coincide with the timing of the shooter. Doing that successfully doesn't make you faster than a speeding bullet.

      Similar with this instance, Itachi has all the cues he needed and the ability to shield himself by timing the action. And no, there's no sound or hand argument, there's just the prediction argument, which is relevant.

      Note: Nothing will come of trying to tell me what my logic is, rather ask if you don't understand.

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    • Zetsu made a point about real lightning reaching the ground at 1/1000th of a second and no matter how you try to spin it with your speculations Itachi reacted to it. From Sasuke actually launching it to it touching the ground? that was 1/1000th of a second. Itachi while nearly having no eyesight left and dying was able to get his Susanoo up in time to save himself. That goes to show his reaction speed and his timing because if he had neither then he wouldn't have made it past that moment. https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Kirin. Also Minato has never moved something away from himself made of chakra unless his own chakra was connected to it and Susanoo is made of chakra.

      "Anything that the user is holding, contacting, or that is linked with their chakra will teleport with them,[7] but this requires additional chakra to do; particularly large objects can require so much chakra as to place a limit on how far away the user is able to teleport.[8]" Minato can't insert his own chakra into the Susanoo unless he is allowed to and Itachi would never accept that chakra into the Susanoo. So warping Susanoo away isn't likely and the moment he does the Susanoo would just pop back up anyway as it is literally the users chakra.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: I'm not the one suggesting Itachi can't use the predictive power of the Sharingan. Lol. I'm not seeing any evidence that the events I pointed out didn't occur, tho that was expected.

      From the wiki:

      • In combat, this allows them to see fast-moving objects and, once fully developed, offers some amount of predictive capabilities: they can anticipate an opponent's next move based on the slightest muscle tension in their body and act accordingly to dodge or intercept. - Kirin doesn't have muscles gg. But sadly this means Obito predicted the raikage and not reacted?
      • Although a Sharingan user can see these things, they also need the physical ability to actually act on the visual information - In itachi's case he would need the mental ability or thought process of one millisecond to act since the predictive thing is off the table, he reacted to it and had the above^. Which Itachi had prove to have in the shurikenjutsu faceoff, Itachi could accurately summon and deflect the shurikens, when Sasuke needed a scroll to summon the shurikens proving he had an inferior thought process.[1]

      The "shooter pointing a gun" example illustrates how one can be faster/countering than the "shooter" but not faster than the bullet. If the shooter tells you he's gonna shoot you in 2 seconds, and your action to put up a shield is 1 second, you have to time your action to coincide with the timing of the shooter. Doing that successfully doesn't make you faster than a speeding bullet.

      Don't manipulate the scenario, it's about reacting to the attack. Dodging the bullet after it had been fired.

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    • @Jason

      I still don't see any evidence that the events I described 1)-6) didn't occur lol. So you're saying the Sharingan can't track objects? Or predict it's path/action? Then you mention the shuriken shootout between Itachi and Sasuke. That a self-contradiction pal. Proof for that please. Physical ability meaning timing, yeah I acknowledged that already.

      I didn't manipulate anything, you drew the wrong conclusion from the "shooter pointing the gun" example which you brought up. I merely corrected you and showed how the analogy that you brought up actually agrees with me. It's hilarious that you are now trying to backtrack realizing this. Thanks btw.

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      1. Where are the muscles in kirin and shurikens? Sorry but i'm working with that muscle tension statement. The wiki does state:
      • In combat, this allows them to see fast-moving objects - This would explain the shurikens..


      • I merely corrected you and showed how the analogy that you brought up actually agrees with me- Literally manipulation.
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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      1. Where are the muscles in kirin and shurikens? Sorry but i'm working with that muscle tension statement. The wiki does state:
      • In combat, this allows them to see fast-moving objects - This would explain the shurikens..

      Lol, you've sunk your own argument (again). Kirin is an object lol.

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      • I merely corrected you and showed how the analogy that you brought up actually agrees with me- Literally manipulation.

      Hahaha

      Correcting you is "literal manipulation"? Sorry pal, saying it doesn't make it so. I've shown two of your arguments don't agree with you already. I once again don't see any evidence that the events 1)-6) did not occur, but like your latest dismissal of your own "shooter pointing a gun" analogy, you chose not to provide evidence or reasoning once again. I can comfortably say that you cite no authority.

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    • Kirin is actual lightning and struck at 1/1000th of a second, comparing it to "an object" is absolutely ridiculous.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Lol, you've sunk your own argument (again). Kirin is an object lol.

      Show me where i called it an object, and continue to ignore my main points and cherry pick things to rebut, i can play at game as well.

      I once again don't see any evidence that the events 1)-6) did not occur

      WhaT?

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    • He thinks you referring to your comment about the Shuriken, he didn't understand what you meant.

      edit

      ne

      The anime does make mistakes sometimes, and other times it tries to fill in gaps in scenes.

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    • FlatZone
      FlatZone removed this reply because:
      dbl post
      04:19, March 27, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • A FANDOM user
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