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  • What do you think is the reason why Jinchuriki Ten-tails only takes damage from Senjutsu?

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    • Its not it only takes damage from Senjutsu, it is just significantly more vulnerable to Senjutsu.

      The series explained it(although Naruto himself barely understood) as natural energy could be used against natural energy

      For whatever reason, the TTJ's natural energy gave them an extra layer of protection that regular chakra couldnt break through.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Its not it only takes damage from Senjutsu, it is just significantly more vulnerable to Senjutsu.

      The series explained it(although Naruto himself barely understood) as natural energy could be used against natural energy

      For whatever reason, the TTJ's natural energy gave them an extra layer of protection that regular chakra couldnt break through.

      Is there a reason why natural energy cannot be neutralized? Your version.

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    • Because its a powerful form of energy.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Because its a powerful form of energy.

      Is there any indication that the body of Jinchuriki Ten-tails is vulnerable to natural energy? It's just that I think the only vulnerability we've been talking about is the neutralization vulnerability to senjutsu.

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    • Wasn't it because the Jinchuriki of the Ten Tails can use Yin-Yang release to nullify ninjutsu made from chakra but not Sage chakra.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Is there any indication that the body of Jinchuriki Ten-tails is vulnerable to natural energy? It's just that I think the only vulnerability we've been talking about is the neutralization vulnerability to senjutsu.

      Naruto's Senjutsu Rasengan did wayyyy more damage than his Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken mixed wit Amaterasu

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Is there any indication that the body of Jinchuriki Ten-tails is vulnerable to natural energy? It's just that I think the only vulnerability we've been talking about is the neutralization vulnerability to senjutsu.

      Naruto's Senjutsu Rasengan did wayyyy more damage than his Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken mixed wit Amaterasu

      Is there a difference between neutralizing ninjutsu and erasing ninjutsu? For some reason, VIZ translated Tobirama's thoughts as "wasn't nullified or erased", although the original says "掻き消されてはいなかった".

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    • Not really. Depending on the context they are synonymous

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    • LegionZero wrote: Not really. Depending on the context they are synonymous

      Okay, we know that:

      - Jinchuriki Ten-tails can take more damage from senjutsu.

      - cannot override senjutsu

      But even if Tobirama combined these concepts, how do you distinguish between the cancellation effect and the erase effect (Hiruzen compared to Dust Release)?

      If TSB can't undo senjutsu, what happens when an Erase Effect is used through it?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But even if Tobirama combined these concepts, how do you distinguish between the cancellation effect and the erase effect (Hiruzen compared to Dust Release)?

      They mean the same thing in this context.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But even if Tobirama combined these concepts, how do you distinguish between the cancellation effect and the erase effect (Hiruzen compared to Dust Release)?

      They mean the same thing in this context.

      Okay, for Tobirama, this is still an annulment. So it's the annulment that can't stand up to senjutsu.

      What about the erasure that Hiruzen compared to Dust Release?

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    • The "annulment"and "erasure" you keep referring to are the exact same thing, just described and analyzed somewhat differently by different characters.

      Nullify and erase mean the same thing in this context

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    • LegionZero wrote: The "annulment"and "erasure" you keep referring to are the exact same thing, just described and analyzed somewhat differently by different characters.

      Nullify and erase mean the same thing in this context

      In the context of words Tobirama is one and the same. Nobody's arguing.

      Hiruzen, on the other hand, analyzed another TSB ability - the erase effect, which he compared to Dust Release.

      These effects are different if only because Tobirama and Hiruzen's bodies were restored (erase / dust effect was used) and Minato's hand wasn't (cancel / Yin-Yang effect was used).

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    • They are the same ability. Just described by different characters.

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    • LegionZero wrote: They are the same ability. Just described by different characters.

      Well, if it's the same techniques, then why did Tobirama and Hiruzen's bodies recover and Minato's hands do not?

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    • Whatever is breaking down the body physically is the same technique. Whatever prevents them from regenerating is the Yin Yang

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    • LegionZero wrote: Whatever is breaking down the body physically is the same technique. Whatever prevents them from regenerating is the Yin Yang

      How? I don't understand you.

      If it's the same technique, it must have the same effect.

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    • Not necessarily. The Kamui in Obito's left and right eye have different properties.

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    • The Truth-Seeking orbs itself can be classified as senjutsu.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Not necessarily. The Kamui in Obito's left and right eye have different properties.

      Kamui is not an appropriate example.

      In your opinion, does TSB by default dust everything (like Dust Release) to which a user can connect Yin-Yang Release to cancel ninjutsu?

      In the past, TSB has always been considered the default material for nothing. It's up to the user to decide what effect they will have by mixing the natural properties inside, as described in the data book. For example Obito used: erase effect (something like Dust Release), blast effect (something like Explosion Release Deidara) and cancellation (Yin-Yang Release). In anime it uses Yang Release through TSB to restore the back.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Kamui is not an appropriate example.

      Yes it it is

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In your opinion, does TSB by default dust everything (like Dust Release) to which a user can connect Yin-Yang Release to cancel ninjutsu?

      No. This obvious by all the times it didnt erase things it could have

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In the past, TSB has always been considered the default material for nothing.

      That doesnt make sense

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's up to the user to decide what effect they will have by mixing the natural properties inside, as described in the data book. For example Obito used: erase effect (something like Dust Release), blast effect (something like Explosion Release Deidara) and cancellation (Yin-Yang Release).

      Pretty much

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In anime it uses Yang Release through TSB to restore the back.

      What does that mean?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: They are the same ability. Just described by different characters.

      Well, if it's the same techniques, then why did Tobirama and Hiruzen's bodies recover and Minato's hands do not?

      Because Hashirama and Tobirama were hit when Obito was mindless and not applying the erasing technique to his TSB. Minato was hit by Obito after he regained his mind

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    • @LegionZero

      Okay, what is TSB by default? Does it have any effect?

      What does the data book then say, which states that it is possible to mix natural properties inside to get different effects?

      Well, in anime, it's restored part of the back with TSB. Obviously, the regeneration can come from Yang Release.

      @Squinty97

      TSB then acted as a Dust Release, as Hiruzen says. LegionZero claims that in the case of Hiruzen and Tobirama and Minato the same thing was used.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, what is TSB by default? Does it have any effect?

      Probably not. They are chakra balls and chakra doesnt do much by itself

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What does the data book then say, which states that it is possible to mix natural properties inside to get different effects?

      It says exactly that

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, in anime, it's restored part of the back with TSB. Obviously, the regeneration can come from Yang Release.

      What? What restored what for who?

      Also its the anime adaptation. Its not canon

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      TSB then acted as a Dust Release, as Hiruzen says. LegionZero claims that in the case of Hiruzen and Tobirama and Minato the same thing was used.

      It didnt act as a dust release, it had the same effect as dust release

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, what is TSB by default? Does it have any effect?

      Probably not. They are chakra balls and chakra doesnt do much by itself

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What does the data book then say, which states that it is possible to mix natural properties inside to get different effects?

      It says exactly that

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, in anime, it's restored part of the back with TSB. Obviously, the regeneration can come from Yang Release.

      What? What restored what for who?

      Also its the anime adaptation. Its not canon

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      TSB then acted as a Dust Release, as Hiruzen says. LegionZero claims that in the case of Hiruzen and Tobirama and Minato the same thing was used.

      It didnt act as a dust release, it had the same effect as dust release

      Okay, if the data book talks about the possibility of mixing properties inside to get different effects, why do you deny the possibility of different effects? (Dust Release effect, Explosion Release effect and Yin-Yang Release effect).

      In anime, after receiving damage from "Senjutsu: Rasengan", Obito regenerated part of his back with TSB. Forget it, I just remembered that moment.

      It's about the Dust Release effect of course, not Dust Release itself.

      I'm just trying to understand:

      - Does TSB by default erase or is it just a material?

      - Is erasure and cancellation the same thing, or are they different effects, and Tobirama just combined these concepts?

      - what exactly is vulnerable to senjutsu: TSB or annulment?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, if the data book talks about the possibility of mixing properties inside to get different effects, why do you deny the possibility of different effects? (Dust Release effect, Explosion Release effect and Yin-Yang Release effect).

      Because despite Hiruzen saying it is similar to Dust Release or that it turns stuff to dust, this effect was only ever observed on ninjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In anime, after receiving damage from "Senjutsu: Rasengan", Obito regenerated part of his back with TSB. Forget it, I just remembered that moment.

      That happened in the manga as well

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I'm just trying to understand:

      - Does TSB by default erase or is it just a material?

      No it is chakra by default.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Is erasure and cancellation the same thing, or are they different effects, and Tobirama just combined these concepts?

      They are the same thing.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - what exactly is vulnerable to senjutsu: TSB or annulment?

      Annulment. Later on the TSB are used to block a giant double Kurama Bijuu Mode Senjutsu Rasengan.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, if the data book talks about the possibility of mixing properties inside to get different effects, why do you deny the possibility of different effects? (Dust Release effect, Explosion Release effect and Yin-Yang Release effect).

      Because despite Hiruzen saying it is similar to Dust Release or that it turns stuff to dust, this effect was only ever observed on ninjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In anime, after receiving damage from "Senjutsu: Rasengan", Obito regenerated part of his back with TSB. Forget it, I just remembered that moment.

      That happened in the manga as well

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I'm just trying to understand:

      - Does TSB by default erase or is it just a material?

      No it is chakra by default.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Is erasure and cancellation the same thing, or are they different effects, and Tobirama just combined these concepts?

      They are the same thing.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - what exactly is vulnerable to senjutsu: TSB or annulment?

      Annulment. Later on the TSB are used to block a giant double Kurama Bijuu Mode Senjutsu Rasengan.

      TSB erased "Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique", which means at least one real shuriken. Just like Obito erased Hiruzen's head, he tried to erase both Naruto and Sasuke. Minato says that what TSB touches will be instantly erased.

      No, in the manga, the regeneration started before TSB got close to the back of the Obito.

      How can it be the same technique if it shows different effects? Describe the mechanics of TSB in this case because wiki says they are different techniques/effects.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      TSB erased "Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique", which means at least one real shuriken.

      There are is no dust or whatever coming from the shuriken

      Also we didnt see if he cut through all the shuriken

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Just like Obito erased Hiruzen's head, he tried to erase both Naruto and Sasuke. Minato says that what TSB touches will be instantly erased.

      Necessarily trying to erase them. He tries to spear them through the face. The TSB can change shape.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No, in the manga, the regeneration started before TSB got close to the back of the Obito.

      It was right next to his back... the anime depicted it being higher up his back but in the manga it was near his back while healing.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How can it be the same technique if it shows different effects? Describe the mechanics of TSB in this case because wiki says they are different techniques/effects.

      The problem is you are viewing the TSB as a technique when they are more like tools. Tools that can be used to do multiple things. Despite what Hiruzen said, the TSB are only observable of erasing ninjutsu. Sometimes the things it eeases comes back, but that depends on the will the user

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      TSB erased "Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique", which means at least one real shuriken.

      There are is no dust or whatever coming from the shuriken

      Also we didnt see if he cut through all the shuriken

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Just like Obito erased Hiruzen's head, he tried to erase both Naruto and Sasuke. Minato says that what TSB touches will be instantly erased.

      Necessarily trying to erase them. He tries to spear them through the face. The TSB can change shape.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No, in the manga, the regeneration started before TSB got close to the back of the Obito.

      It was right next to his back... the anime depicted it being higher up his back but in the manga it was near his back while healing.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How can it be the same technique if it shows different effects? Describe the mechanics of TSB in this case because wiki says they are different techniques/effects.

      The problem is you are viewing the TSB as a technique when they are more like tools. Tools that can be used to do multiple things. Despite what Hiruzen said, the TSB are only observable of erasing ninjutsu. Sometimes the things it eeases comes back, but that depends on the will the user

      There's a dust effect that Hiruzen talks about. Reread the moment, please.

      What's the point of regenerating through TSB when Ten-tails is sitting inside, which can regenerate even half of the body? Before Obito regained consciousness, he destroyed half of his body, but later successfully recovered it without TSB, just like Madara. What's the point in using TSB now that he's taken minor damage? Your logic comes from an incomprehensible perspective, not logic and reality.

      So you're saying that cancelation and erasure are the same technique? What element does it belong to?

      And there are more questions. The data book says that you can get different effects by mixing natural properties inside, from here:

      - what's the point of writing this if no one's ever shown the effects?

      - If cancellations and erasures are the same thing and not a Dust Release effect, can the user create a Dust Release effect? Will it work like a Dust Release?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      There's a dust effect that Hiruzen talks about. Reread the moment, please.

      This is true. Still the "dusting" has only ever shown to be effective against ninjutsu

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What's the point of regenerating through TSB when Ten-tails is sitting inside, which can regenerate even half of the body? Before Obito regained consciousness, he destroyed half of his body, but later successfully recovered it without TSB, just like Madara. What's the point in using TSB now that he's taken minor damage? Your logic comes from an incomprehensible perspective, not logic and reality.

      Because Senjutsu actually causes him significant harm. TSB are not Senjutsu from all the information we have.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So you're saying that cancelation and erasure are the same technique? What element does it belong to?

      YinYang

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And there are more questions. The data book says that you can get different effects by mixing natural properties inside, from here:

      - what's the point of writing this if no one's ever shown the effects?

      Its unclear whether or not it means they can be mixed together to create Kekkei natures.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - If cancellations and erasures are the same thing and not a Dust Release effect, can the user create a Dust Release effect? Will it work like a Dust Release?

      It would seem not. If he could then the manga should have been over when Obito regained his consciousness.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      There's a dust effect that Hiruzen talks about. Reread the moment, please.

      This is true. Still the "dusting" has only ever shown to be effective against ninjutsu

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What's the point of regenerating through TSB when Ten-tails is sitting inside, which can regenerate even half of the body? Before Obito regained consciousness, he destroyed half of his body, but later successfully recovered it without TSB, just like Madara. What's the point in using TSB now that he's taken minor damage? Your logic comes from an incomprehensible perspective, not logic and reality.

      Because Senjutsu actually causes him significant harm. TSB are not Senjutsu from all the information we have.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So you're saying that cancelation and erasure are the same technique? What element does it belong to?

      YinYang

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And there are more questions. The data book says that you can get different effects by mixing natural properties inside, from here:

      - what's the point of writing this if no one's ever shown the effects?

      Its unclear whether or not it means they can be mixed together to create Kekkei natures.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - If cancellations and erasures are the same thing and not a Dust Release effect, can the user create a Dust Release effect? Will it work like a Dust Release?

      It would seem not. If he could then the manga should have been over when Obito regained his consciousness.

      I don't get it, what's that got to do with it. Because of senjutsu he couldn't use personal regeneration or something? I don't get it, but if he did, Madara quietly regenerated after taking damage from senjutsu. Or did you compare his damage to "Senjutsu: Rasengan" with the loss of half his body?!

      Okay, you think the cancellation and erasure is Release Yin-Yang. But, Hiruzen said that erasure is the result of 4+ natural transformations, drawing a parallel with Dust Release Oonoki, which is the result of only 3 natural transformations.

      What does the data book then mean? What are the effects? What is the superiority over Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection? By the way, the data book quotes Hiruzen's thoughts, but only Hiruzen was talking specifically about erasure, not some effects, which is strange.

      Do you really think that Hiruzen is just unlucky? He used a real object against TSB - shuriken, who later cloned. By a ridiculous coincidence, Obito only got the shuriken that Hiruzen cloned, so he erased them. Question: if the real shuriken got into TSB, what would happen to him?

      I also remembered the kunai Minato, which Obito had just erased rather than broken. Doesn't that mean that Dust Release effect affects not only ninjutsu, but real items as well?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't get it, what's that got to do with it. Because of senjutsu he couldn't use personal regeneration or something?

      Juubi-Jin are vulnerable to Senjutsu. It hurts them in a way that they have a harder time recovering from.

      Even looking at Obito destroying half his body he doesnt seem to be hurt by it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't get it, but if he did, Madara quietly regenerated after taking damage from senjutsu.

      I dont recall this happening.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, you think the cancellation and erasure is Release Yin-Yang. But, Hiruzen said that erasure is the result of 4+ natural transformations, drawing a parallel with Dust Release Oonoki, which is the result of only 3 natural transformations.

      Hiruzen said that it had an effect similar to Dust release

      Then he said it can change shape

      And then he said it is made of 4+ Nature Transformations

      All seperate observations and none of them causal

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What does the data book then mean? What are the effects?

      Being fluid like water but strong like earth i guess.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What is the superiority over Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection?

      Because it encompassed more nature transformations.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Do you really think that Hiruzen is just unlucky? He used a real object against TSB - shuriken, who later cloned. By a ridiculous coincidence, Obito only got the shuriken that Hiruzen cloned, so he erased them.

      Hiruzen started out with 1 Shuriken

      20 can be seen flying toward Obito

      Only 6 maybe were shown being destroyed by TSB


      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Question: if the real shuriken got into TSB, what would happen to him?

      He would use the TSB to cut/block/deflect/catch it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I also remembered the kunai Minato, which Obito had just erased rather than broken. Doesn't that mean that Dust Release effect affects not only ninjutsu, but real items as well?

      But did he erase it? Is there any real evidence that he erased it?

      If he did, they were part of Edo Tensei anyways so it isnt inconsistant.

      If the TSB could basically be dust release there is no reason the manga should have gone passed Obito becoming Juubi-Jin. He should have Dusted anyone who came within 10 feet of him and the manga would have been over

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't get it, what's that got to do with it. Because of senjutsu he couldn't use personal regeneration or something?

      Juubi-Jin are vulnerable to Senjutsu. It hurts them in a way that they have a harder time recovering from.

      Even looking at Obito destroying half his body he doesnt seem to be hurt by it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't get it, but if he did, Madara quietly regenerated after taking damage from senjutsu.

      I dont recall this happening.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, you think the cancellation and erasure is Release Yin-Yang. But, Hiruzen said that erasure is the result of 4+ natural transformations, drawing a parallel with Dust Release Oonoki, which is the result of only 3 natural transformations.

      Hiruzen said that it had an effect similar to Dust release

      Then he said it can change shape

      And then he said it is made of 4+ Nature Transformations

      All seperate observations and none of them causal

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What does the data book then mean? What are the effects?

      Being fluid like water but strong like earth i guess.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What is the superiority over Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection?

      Because it encompassed more nature transformations.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Do you really think that Hiruzen is just unlucky? He used a real object against TSB - shuriken, who later cloned. By a ridiculous coincidence, Obito only got the shuriken that Hiruzen cloned, so he erased them.

      Hiruzen started out with 1 Shuriken

      20 can be seen flying toward Obito

      Only 6 maybe were shown being destroyed by TSB


      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Question: if the real shuriken got into TSB, what would happen to him?

      He would use the TSB to cut/block/deflect/catch it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I also remembered the kunai Minato, which Obito had just erased rather than broken. Doesn't that mean that Dust Release effect affects not only ninjutsu, but real items as well?

      But did he erase it? Is there any real evidence that he erased it?

      If he did, they were part of Edo Tensei anyways so it isnt inconsistant.

      If the TSB could basically be dust release there is no reason the manga should have gone passed Obito becoming Juubi-Jin. He should have Dusted anyone who came within 10 feet of him and the manga would have been over

      Madara suffered damage from "Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken", and nothing prevented him from recovering.

      But Hiruzen is talking about Dust Release effect, drawing a parallel with Dust Release Oonoki. But unlike Dust Release Oonoki, the Dust effect through TBS is not limited in form. After that, Hiruzen concludes that TBS with Dust effect is formed of 4+ transformations of nature. Everything here is hereditary.

      Okay, then how does an explosion through TBS come about?

      The superiority over Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection only applies to TSB with the Dust effect. Like it can change shape, as opposed to a simple Dust Release.

      Kunai - part of "Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation"? Nonsense, isn't it?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara suffered damage from "Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken", and nothing prevented him from recovering.

      Madara got utterly wrecked by it and hadnt fully healed until he absorbed the tree

      Also i never said Senjutsu prevents them from recovering. I said it makes it is harder to recover from.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But Hiruzen is talking about Dust Release effect, drawing a parallel with Dust Release Oonoki. But unlike Dust Release Oonoki, the Dust effect through TBS is not limited in form. After that, Hiruzen concludes that TBS with Dust effect is formed of 4+ transformations of nature. Everything here is hereditary.

      All seperate statemants and none of them are an explanation for any of the other statements made.

      He does not say that the dust effect is because of the natures. He states that TSB use 4+ natures, which is more than KKG or KKT

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, then how does an explosion through TBS come about?

      Chakra. Fire release. Wind release. Lightning Release. Water and earth are the the only basic Nature Transformation with no exploding techniques

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Kunai - part of "Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation"? Nonsense, isn't it?

      Not at all. People who get resurected with Edo Tensei come back with all of their clothes and equipment. Edo's clothes and armor "heal" after they are damaged. It is no more nonsense than Madara/Tobirama's armor, Hiruzen's helmet, or Itachi's cloak "healing"

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara suffered damage from "Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken", and nothing prevented him from recovering.

      Madara got utterly wrecked by it and hadnt fully healed until he absorbed the tree

      Also i never said Senjutsu prevents them from recovering. I said it makes it is harder to recover from.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But Hiruzen is talking about Dust Release effect, drawing a parallel with Dust Release Oonoki. But unlike Dust Release Oonoki, the Dust effect through TBS is not limited in form. After that, Hiruzen concludes that TBS with Dust effect is formed of 4+ transformations of nature. Everything here is hereditary.

      All seperate statemants and none of them are an explanation for any of the other statements made.

      He does not say that the dust effect is because of the natures. He states that TSB use 4+ natures, which is more than KKG or KKT

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, then how does an explosion through TBS come about?

      Chakra. Fire release. Wind release. Lightning Release. Water and earth are the the only basic Nature Transformation with no exploding techniques

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Kunai - part of "Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation"? Nonsense, isn't it?

      Not at all. People who get resurected with Edo Tensei come back with all of their clothes and equipment. Edo's clothes and armor "heal" after they are damaged. It is no more nonsense than Madara/Tobirama's armor, Hiruzen's helmet, or Itachi's cloak "healing"

      Well, let's say you convinced me. What about the wiki? Why does the article say the exact opposite?

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    • Says the opposite about what?

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    • LegionZero wrote: Says the opposite about what?

      On wiki, erase (Dust Release effect) and cancel ninjutsu - different techniques / effects.

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    • The wiki isnt the end all be all, so i am not concerned with every detail written by the wiki. I brought up this up on the talk page

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    • LegionZero wrote: The wiki isnt the end all be all, so i am not concerned with every detail written by the wiki. I brought up this up on the talk page

      May I refer to your discussion?

      I've reread the moments from Hiruzen again:

      - even before using Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique, he noted that the Obito attack erases everything.

      - later he says it's very similar to Dust Release Oonoki, but the form is not permanent, so it can be used for both protection and attack.

      - still talking about it, he claims that his technique is made up of 4+ transformations of nature, which is superior to Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection.

      It was about erasing, not TSB. It is his "erasure technique" that reminds Dust Release Oonoki, it is the one that emerges from the 4+ transformations of nature, which is superior to Bloodline Limit, where only 2 transformations of nature and Bloodline Selection, where 3 transformations. It was about "erasing", not TSB.

      And now the question is, if according to Hiruzen it is the use of 4+ natural transformations, what element is the erasure / cancellation? Why Yin-Yang, if Hiruzen pointed out a different nature?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - even before using Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique, he noted that the Obito attack erases everything.

      ... because he saw what they did to Tobirama and Hashirama's wood clone

      ReweR 1331 wrote: - still talking about it, he claims that his technique is made up of 4+ transformations of nature, which is superior to Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection.

      You are still drawing causal relationships between the statements

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It was about erasing, not TSB. It is his "erasure technique" that reminds Dust Release Oonoki,

      And then be makes other observations about them

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - even before using Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique, he noted that the Obito attack erases everything.

      ... because he saw what they did to Tobirama and Hashirama's wood clone

      ReweR 1331 wrote: - still talking about it, he claims that his technique is made up of 4+ transformations of nature, which is superior to Bloodline Limit and Bloodline Selection.

      You are still drawing causal relationships between the statements

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It was about erasing, not TSB. It is his "erasure technique" that reminds Dust Release Oonoki,

      And then be makes other observations about them

      Where is the proof that Hiruzen talks about different things and that there is no consistent connection in his words (thoughts)?

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
      .
      19:56, June 27, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Where is the proof that Hiruzen talks about different things and that there is no consistent connection in his words (thoughts)?

      The text is the proof. He makes a comparison, a contrast (depending on the translation this is just a general statement), and then a general statemant. He never says the Dust release-like ability is because of the number of elements in the TSB. He only says that uses 4+ which is more than KKG or KKT. He doesnt even relate that statement back to Dust Release

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Where is the proof that Hiruzen talks about different things and that there is no consistent connection in his words (thoughts)?

      The text is the proof. He makes a comparison, a contrast (depending on the translation this is just a general statement), and then a general statemant. He never says the Dust release-like ability is because of the number of elements in the TSB. He only says that uses 4+ which is more than KKG or KKT. He doesnt even relate that statement back to Dust Release

      Can you share normal versions of the translation? I read VIZ and see the translation as part of one statement.

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    • What do you mean "normal"? there are plenty of translation on the net you can find.

      Also in the VIZ translation, the statemant about the natures that TSB contains are on a whole seperate page. It is not a continuation of the prior statemant at all

      Do you consider his observation about the time limit on them to be about the dustification as well? Because that is actually a continuation of his statemant about the nature transformation.

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    • LegionZero wrote: What do you mean "normal"? there are plenty of translation on the net you can find.

      Also in the VIZ translation, the statemant about the natures that TSB contains are on a whole seperate page. It is not a continuation of the prior statemant at all

      Do you consider his observation about the time limit on them to be about the dustification as well? Because that is actually a continuation of his statemant about the nature transformation.

      Yes, I agree with you.

      Do you think this technique is only characteristic of Jinchuriki Ten-tails, or can it be mastered? The same Madara used something like an erasure after Sunday.

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
      then why respond?
      14:22, June 27, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • ......what?

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    • I'm starting to think english isn't this guy's first language. Or maybe there's some crazy auto-correct going on.

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    • @LegionZero

      Cancellation / erasure ninjutsu.

      @GunmetalDragon

      Yes, you are right, English is not my native. I'm sorry.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote: @LegionZero

      Cancellation / erasure ninjutsu.

      @GunmetalDragon

      Yes, you are right, English is not my native. I'm sorry.

      I need you to reword the question completely. You said something about Madara after Sunday and mastering things and idk

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote: @LegionZero

      Cancellation / erasure ninjutsu.

      @GunmetalDragon

      Yes, you are right, English is not my native. I'm sorry.

      I need you to reword the question completely. You said something about Madara after Sunday and mastering things and idk

      Do you think the ninjutsu cancellation / erase technique is typical only for Jinchuriki Ten-tails? Like sand control for Jinchuriki Shukaku, Lava Release for Jinchuriki Son Goku, Boil Release for Jinchuriki Kokuo and so on.

      Or can I learn it (annulment technique)? There is a version that Madara used annulment / erase ninjutsu to get rid of Amaterasu Sasuke.

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    • Madara didn't erase Amaterasu or absorb it. He took his armor off with the Amaterasu because he no longer had a Rinnegan to absorb with

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Madara didn't erase Amaterasu or absorb it. He took his armor off with the Amaterasu because he no longer had a Rinnegan to absorb with

      Naruto: Sasuke, it makes no sense, it can absorb ninjutsu. Meanwhile, Madara: takes off her armor, getting rid of the amaterasu.

      There was quite a lot of flame, but after the armor was removed, it disappeared, although the armor had to be on fire.

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    • No, he removed his armor for sure, but he also did something to the flames we just don't know exactly what it was.

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    • FlatZone wrote: No, he removed his armor for sure, but he also did something to the flames we just don't know exactly what it was.

      @FlatZone

      How did Madara get rid of the flames according to your version?

      @LegionZero

      + to the previous question. How do you interpret the Naruto case? In Chapter 682, when Naruto and Sasuke were moved into the ice measurement and literally ground in the ice, TSB Naruto showed that they erase the ice as they move forward (as in the case of Hiruzen, something like the Dust Release effect). Can't get the words Minato and the description of TSB in the data book out of my head either.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      + to the previous question. How do you interpret the Naruto case? In Chapter 682, when Naruto and Sasuke were moved into the ice measurement and literally ground in the ice, TSB Naruto showed that they erase the ice as they move forward (as in the case of Hiruzen, something like the Dust Release effect).

      If it was dusting the ice it wouldnt move slowly. Dust release atomizes what it touches instantly

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can't get the words Minato and the description of TSB in the data book out of my head either.

      What words?

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      + to the previous question. How do you interpret the Naruto case? In Chapter 682, when Naruto and Sasuke were moved into the ice measurement and literally ground in the ice, TSB Naruto showed that they erase the ice as they move forward (as in the case of Hiruzen, something like the Dust Release effect).

      If it was dusting the ice it wouldnt move slowly. Dust release atomizes what it touches instantly

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can't get the words Minato and the description of TSB in the data book out of my head either.

      What words?

      You did not answer the previous question:(

      "Is your version of the origin of the cancellation / erasure ninjutsu? Is it jutsu available only to Jinchuriki Ten-tails as sand control for Jinchuriki Shukaku, Lava Release for Jinchuriki Son-Goku? Or is it something you can learn?"

      Well, Minato's words about erasing everything that TSB touches. The data book also describes them as "balls that can erase an entire forest."

      Well, what happened to TSB Naruto then?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You did not answer the previous question:(

      "Is your version of the origin of the cancellation / erasure ninjutsu? Is it jutsu available only to Jinchuriki Ten-tails as sand control for Jinchuriki Shukaku, Lava Release for Jinchuriki Son-Goku? Or is it something you can learn?"

      My bad. I think erasure is available to anyone with TSB.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, Minato's words about erasing everything that TSB touches.

      Which chapter?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The data book also describes them as "balls that can erase an entire forest."

      I read the translations for the TSB, Expansive TSB, Six Paths Ten Tails Coffin Seal, and Six Paths Sage Mode. None of them say anything about a forest. What entry are you referring to?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, what happened to TSB Naruto then?

      He either used fire chakra to melt through it or he used it like a Super Mini TBB to destroy what it was touching. The Six Paths Juubi Coffin Seal entry says TSB are similar to TBB

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You did not answer the previous question:(

      "Is your version of the origin of the cancellation / erasure ninjutsu? Is it jutsu available only to Jinchuriki Ten-tails as sand control for Jinchuriki Shukaku, Lava Release for Jinchuriki Son-Goku? Or is it something you can learn?"

      My bad. I think erasure is available to anyone with TSB.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, Minato's words about erasing everything that TSB touches.

      Which chapter?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The data book also describes them as "balls that can erase an entire forest."

      I read the translations for the TSB, Expansive TSB, Six Paths Ten Tails Coffin Seal, and Six Paths Sage Mode. None of them say anything about a forest. What entry are you referring to?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, what happened to TSB Naruto then?

      He either used fire chakra to melt through it or he used it like a Super Mini TBB to destroy what it was touching. The Six Paths Juubi Coffin Seal entry says TSB are similar to TBB

      Naruto didn't use the cancellation/erase ninjutsu, which is weird.

      Tom 70, chapter 669. + to that, when Madara wanted to destroy Guy's body, he pointed TSB at him. Then Naruto came in and kicked him, which surprised Madara... The question is why was he surprised that Naruto was able to touch the TSB if the default balls do not hurt it is just a tool? And the second question, Madara just the ball wanted to hit the body Guy?

      "Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest."

      You said that Obito could use simple elements, lightning or wind as an explosion. If Naruto used fire, why has his TSB not changed in any way? Obito's TSB was emitting light, for example.

      TBB? But they explode on contact, and then the balls just "float" in the ice...

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto didn't use the cancellation/erase ninjutsu, which is weird.

      It wouldnt work anyways. He was fighting Senjutsu/6 Paths users after obtaining SPSM

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Tom 70, chapter 669.

      Tom 70? Im not seeing anything about TSB dusting things in 669. Also, every instance of someone talking about TSB damaging or destroying something doesnt mean the TSB is dusting something

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      + to that, when Madara wanted to destroy Guy's body, he pointed TSB at him. Then Naruto came in and kicked him, which surprised Madara... The question is why was he surprised that Naruto was able to touch the TSB if the default balls do not hurt it is just a tool?

      Because TSB are really strong.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And the second question, Madara just the ball wanted to hit the body Guy?

      Why do you assume it would stay a ball? It could do many things upon reaching Guy. Like become a sharp object to stab him or wrap around and crush him or explode. Or it could hit him with such force that it destroyed his body.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      "Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest."

      That doesnt mean they will dust the forest. They do a number of things, like become sharp objects, or large objects, or explode

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You said that Obito could use simple elements, lightning or wind as an explosion. If Naruto used fire, why has his TSB not changed in any way? Obito's TSB was emitting light, for example.

      Why would it? It doesnt change much when becoming fluid like water or solid like earth. What Obito did isnt relevent because Naruto was doing something else. Something that didnt involve exploding

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      TBB? But they explode on contact, and then the balls just "float" in the ice...

      They dont always explode.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto didn't use the cancellation/erase ninjutsu, which is weird.

      It wouldnt work anyways. He was fighting Senjutsu/6 Paths users after obtaining SPSM

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Tom 70, chapter 669.

      Tom 70? Im not seeing anything about TSB dusting things in 669. Also, every instance of someone talking about TSB damaging or destroying something doesnt mean the TSB is dusting something

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      + to that, when Madara wanted to destroy Guy's body, he pointed TSB at him. Then Naruto came in and kicked him, which surprised Madara... The question is why was he surprised that Naruto was able to touch the TSB if the default balls do not hurt it is just a tool?

      Because TSB are really strong.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And the second question, Madara just the ball wanted to hit the body Guy?

      Why do you assume it would stay a ball? It could do many things upon reaching Guy. Like become a sharp object to stab him or wrap around and crush him or explode. Or it could hit him with such force that it destroyed his body.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      "Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest."

      That doesnt mean they will dust the forest. They do a number of things, like become sharp objects, or large objects, or explode

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You said that Obito could use simple elements, lightning or wind as an explosion. If Naruto used fire, why has his TSB not changed in any way? Obito's TSB was emitting light, for example.

      Why would it? It doesnt change much when becoming fluid like water or solid like earth. What Obito did isnt relevent because Naruto was doing something else. Something that didnt involve exploding

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      TBB? But they explode on contact, and then the balls just "float" in the ice...

      They dont always explode.

      Sasuke is not a senjutsu user, so Naruto should have used the annulment / erase ninjutsu against it

      Okay, if TSB is getting stronger because of Earth Release, what is the default ball? Is it sturdy / strong? Or do you mean that using Water Release makes it liquid, which makes it possible to change its shape, and Earth Release makes it possible to make / leave this shape strong?

      What exactly did Obito do in your opinion?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Sasuke is not a senjutsu user, so Naruto should have used the annulment / erase ninjutsu against it

      He has 6 Paths chakra. He is immune to the annulment

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, if TSB is getting stronger because of Earth Release, what is the default ball? Is it sturdy / strong? Or do you mean that using Water Release makes it liquid, which makes it possible to change its shape, and Earth Release makes it possible to make / leave this shape strong?

      The TSB is a ball of chakra, i mentioned this before. Its in the TSB databook entry

      They take on the properties of the element the user wants them to, they dont turn in to that element

      Being strong sturdy is a property of Earth release

      Being flowing and fluid is a property of water release

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What exactly did Obito do in your opinion?

      When?

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Sasuke is not a senjutsu user, so Naruto should have used the annulment / erase ninjutsu against it

      He has 6 Paths chakra. He is immune to the annulment

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, if TSB is getting stronger because of Earth Release, what is the default ball? Is it sturdy / strong? Or do you mean that using Water Release makes it liquid, which makes it possible to change its shape, and Earth Release makes it possible to make / leave this shape strong?

      The TSB is a ball of chakra, i mentioned this before. Its in the TSB databook entry

      They take on the properties of the element the user wants them to, they dont turn in to that element

      Being strong sturdy is a property of Earth release

      Being flowing and fluid is a property of water release

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What exactly did Obito do in your opinion?

      When?

      You mean his Rinnegan? Has it been said in the manga that it makes you insensitive? It's just that even in the battle against Madara, Sasuke noted that it's better to use Six Paths senjutsu against Madara, senjutsu.

      In what way is that expressed?

      "Being strong sturdy is a property of Earth release."

      The default ball is strong enough, why the earth release?

      How exactly did Obito's TSB explosion come about?

      UPD: By the way, TSB Naruto started to sink the ice from the beginning as soon as they got into this dimension.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You mean his Rinnegan? Has it been said in the manga that it makes you insensitive? It's just that even in the battle against Madara, Sasuke noted that it's better to use Six Paths senjutsu against Madara, senjutsu.

      ....what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In what way is that expressed?

      Is what expressed?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      "Being strong sturdy is a property of Earth release."

      The default ball is strong enough, why the earth release?

      By default, they are chakra. Even Minato said they dissipate on contact in 669

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How exactly did Obito's TSB explosion come about?

      Like a TSB explosion. Because they are similar to TSB, as stated in the databook.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      UPD: By the way, TSB Naruto started to sink the ice from the beginning as soon as they got into this dimension.

      Cool. So what?

      A lot of the answers you are looking for are in the manga or databooks. I dont understand why you harp on one or two statements/feats and act like all the other ones dont exist or are inherently contradictory.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You mean his Rinnegan? Has it been said in the manga that it makes you insensitive? It's just that even in the battle against Madara, Sasuke noted that it's better to use Six Paths senjutsu against Madara, senjutsu.

      ....what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In what way is that expressed?

      Is what expressed?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      "Being strong sturdy is a property of Earth release."

      The default ball is strong enough, why the earth release?

      By default, they are chakra. Even Minato said they dissipate on contact in 669

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How exactly did Obito's TSB explosion come about?

      Like a TSB explosion. Because they are similar to TSB, as stated in the databook.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      UPD: By the way, TSB Naruto started to sink the ice from the beginning as soon as they got into this dimension.

      Cool. So what?

      A lot of the answers you are looking for are in the manga or databooks. I dont understand why you harp on one or two statements/feats and act like all the other ones dont exist or are inherently contradictory.

      What do you call a chakra six paths Sasuke? His Rinnegan? If so, in which chapter did you subtract that Rinnegan gives the same neutrality as senjutsu in relation to the cancellation / erasure of ninjutsu? As far as I remember, the whole war was focused on using senjutsu or senjutsu six paths against Jinchuriki Ten-tails.

      I didn't understand what Minato was talking about. Maybe I have the wrong translation again. (Viz media)

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    • 6 Paths chakra is 6 Paths chakra. 6 Paths Senjutsu is 6 Paths chakra nature energy. Sasuke got 6 Paths Chakra from Hagoromo. Most of the war centered around Senjutsu against the Juubi-Jin because no one had access to 6 Paths chakra.

      Minato was saying that they dissipate if someone tries to grab them

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    • LegionZero wrote: 6 Paths chakra is 6 Paths chakra. 6 Paths Senjutsu is 6 Paths chakra nature energy. Sasuke got 6 Paths Chakra from Hagoromo. Most of the war centered around Senjutsu against the Juubi-Jin because no one had access to 6 Paths chakra.

      Minato was saying that they dissipate if someone tries to grab them

      But, except for the seal Yin and Amenotejikara, Sasuke got nothing from Sage. Okay, where it says that the presence of chakra six paths also allows you to oppose the cancellation / erasure ninjutsu?

      Can I get a full quote from Minato?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But, except for the seal Yin and Amenotejikara, Sasuke got nothing from Sage.

      What arw you talking about? He got the Rinnegan and the 2nd ability he used after Hagoromo gave him power was 6 Paths Chidori...

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, where it says that the presence of chakra six paths also allows you to oppose the cancellation / erasure ninjutsu?

      Neither Madara nor Naruto even bothered trying to erase his ninjutsu. Naruto used a TSB as a Rasenshuriken core against Indra's arrow and all it did was explode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can I get a full quote from Minato?

      "If you brush it, it disappears, but if you touch it, it's solid"

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But, except for the seal Yin and Amenotejikara, Sasuke got nothing from Sage.

      What arw you talking about? He got the Rinnegan and the 2nd ability he used after Hagoromo gave him power was 6 Paths Chidori...

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, where it says that the presence of chakra six paths also allows you to oppose the cancellation / erasure ninjutsu?

      Neither Madara nor Naruto even bothered trying to erase his ninjutsu. Naruto used a TSB as a Rasenshuriken core against Indra's arrow and all it did was explode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can I get a full quote from Minato?

      "If you brush it, it disappears, but if you touch it, it's solid"

      Nowhere does it say he got Rinnegan from Six Paths Sage. The data book says only that the Yin and Amenotejikara seals were obtained from the Sage and Rinnegan he himself had an epiphany.

      Both Naruto and Sasuke used Sis Paths Senjutsu against Madara.

      Well, that's when you consider that ninjutsu cancellation / erasure is available to all TSB users, not a unique technique for Jinchuriki Ten-tails.

      Are you talking about what Minato says on page 13?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Nowhere does it say he got Rinnegan from Six Paths Sage. The data book says only that the Yin and Amenotejikara seals were obtained from the Sage and Rinnegan he himself had an epiphany.

      Because he got it after Hagoromo gave him and Naruto half of his power.

      Amenotejikara doesnt have a seal. Its Rinengan ability

      Read Hagoromo's databook entry.

      Read Kaguya's databook entry

      Read Sasuke's databook entry

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Both Naruto and Sasuke used Sis Paths Senjutsu against Madara.

      The seal placed on him was SPS but Sasuke himself doesnt have 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Are you talking about what Minato says on page 13?

      12

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Nowhere does it say he got Rinnegan from Six Paths Sage. The data book says only that the Yin and Amenotejikara seals were obtained from the Sage and Rinnegan he himself had an epiphany.

      Because he got it after Hagoromo gave him and Naruto half of his power.

      Amenotejikara doesnt have a seal. Its Rinengan ability

      Read Hagoromo's databook entry.

      Read Kaguya's databook entry

      Read Sasuke's databook entry

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Both Naruto and Sasuke used Sis Paths Senjutsu against Madara.

      The seal placed on him was SPS but Sasuke himself doesnt have 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Are you talking about what Minato says on page 13?

      12

      In fact, that's just your speculation. It's not mentioned in any source. The data book speaks only about getting the Yin and Amenotejikara stamps. Not a word about Rinnegan from his grandfather. But both Madara and the data book specify that Sasuke awakened Rinnegan.

      Senjutsu Six Paths at Sasuke is using the chakra from the Yin seal.

      In what translation did you read? I'm reading viz media and I don't see the words you gave me.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's not mentioned in any source. The data book speaks only about getting the Yin and Amenotejikara stamps. Not a word about Rinnegan from his grandfather. But both Madara and the data book specify that Sasuke awakened Rinnegan.

      Amenotejikara isnt a stamp.

      Read the entries for Amenotejikara, Sasuke, Kaguya, and Hagoromo. Its all clearly explained there. Eothwr you understand it or you dont

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Senjutsu Six Paths at Sasuke is using the chakra from the Yin seal.

      No he is not. He doesnt draw power from the seal. The seal is for placing on the Juubi-Jin to seal them away.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In what translation did you read? I'm reading viz media and I don't see the words you gave me.

      Mangapanda

      The Viz version words it differently but it means the same thing. Touching makes it disappear but it can still be physically felt.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's not mentioned in any source. The data book speaks only about getting the Yin and Amenotejikara stamps. Not a word about Rinnegan from his grandfather. But both Madara and the data book specify that Sasuke awakened Rinnegan.

      Amenotejikara isnt a stamp.

      Read the entries for Amenotejikara, Sasuke, Kaguya, and Hagoromo. Its all clearly explained there. Eothwr you understand it or you dont

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Senjutsu Six Paths at Sasuke is using the chakra from the Yin seal.

      No he is not. He doesnt draw power from the seal. The seal is for placing on the Juubi-Jin to seal them away.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In what translation did you read? I'm reading viz media and I don't see the words you gave me.

      Mangapanda

      The Viz version words it differently but it means the same thing. Touching makes it disappear but it can still be physically felt.

      OMG, I'm not saying that Yin and Amenotejikara seals are the same, they are different techniques that Sasuke received from Six Paths Sage. All it says about Rinnegan is that he's had his epiphany. Stop sending me to read the data book, I am well aware of what it says. Although, let's make this easy, please indicate the data book page that says Rinegan Sasuke is from his grandfathers...

      It was about Six Paths Senjutsu. Just because Sasuke called it "Six Paths Power" doesn't mean it's not Senjutsu. Kakashi also called the SPSM Naruto and Obito. The conclusion from this is that six paths is just a shortened version of the name six paths senjutsu.

      upd: So TSB becomes physical because of the Earth Release effect?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      OMG, I'm not saying that Yin and Amenotejikara seals are the same, they are different techniques that Sasuke received from Six Paths Sage. All it says about Rinnegan is that he's had his epiphany. Stop sending me to read the data book, I am well aware of what it says.

      Clearly not since the entries i directed you to you all say he got Sasuke Rinnegan from Hagoromo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Although, let's make this easy, please indicate the data book page that says Rinegan Sasuke is from his grandfathers...

      What are you talking about grandfathers?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It was about Six Paths Senjutsu. Just because Sasuke called it "Six Paths Power" doesn't mean it's not Senjutsu.

      Thats exactly what it means. If it was 6 Paths Senjutsu he would say 6 Paths Senjutsu. There is no statement or feats of Sasuke having SPS. Even Madara claimed that only Naruto had SPS. 6 Paths has been used to describe characters without SPS and techniques have been called 6 Paths witbout SPS, so you are just wrong about this.

      Even after he lost the Yin Seal his jutsu couldnt be nullified by Naruto so CLEARLY 6 Paths=/=SPS. Also clearly 6 Paths ninjutsu cant be nullified.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      OMG, I'm not saying that Yin and Amenotejikara seals are the same, they are different techniques that Sasuke received from Six Paths Sage. All it says about Rinnegan is that he's had his epiphany. Stop sending me to read the data book, I am well aware of what it says.

      Clearly not since the entries i directed you to you all say he got Sasuke Rinnegan from Hagoromo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Although, let's make this easy, please indicate the data book page that says Rinegan Sasuke is from his grandfathers...

      What are you talking about grandfathers?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It was about Six Paths Senjutsu. Just because Sasuke called it "Six Paths Power" doesn't mean it's not Senjutsu.

      Thats exactly what it means. If it was 6 Paths Senjutsu he would say 6 Paths Senjutsu. There is no statement or feats of Sasuke having SPS. Even Madara claimed that only Naruto had SPS. 6 Paths has been used to describe characters without SPS and techniques have been called 6 Paths witbout SPS, so you are just wrong about this.

      Even after he lost the Yin Seal his jutsu couldnt be nullified by Naruto so CLEARLY 6 Paths=/=SPS. Also clearly 6 Paths ninjutsu cant be nullified.

      Give a direct quote from the data book that says Sasuke Rinnegan from Hagoromo. The receipt of the Yin Seal from Hagoromo, it says. The receipt of Amenotejikara from Hagoromo, it says. About receiving Rinnegan 0 mentions Hagoromo. (Hagoromo - grandfather, I meant it)

      Yes, say that to Kakashi, who called Senjutsu Naruto and Obito - Six Paths Power. I don't know why I should ignore using Sasuke senjutsu, because..:

      - his Chidori changed its colour to black, like the first season's curse mark, which senjutsu knows...

      - The seals carry six paths sage chakra, as the data book on Chibaku Tensei says.

      - the entire Sasuke dialogue is set to only six paths senjutsu effectively against Madara.

      You use the words of Madara as an example, but his words take into account only the personal power of Naruto and Sasuke. He knew nothing about seals.

      You put your opinion above the manga again. First of all, nowhere does it say that Naruto can use the annulment/erase of ninjutsu. This jutsu showed only Jinchuriki Ten-tails. Your theory is good, but do not consider it a fact, okay? Secondly, even if we consider your version, Naruto doesn't have the Yin Release that you need for the Yin-Yang Release.

      So TSB becomes physical because of the Earth Release effect? So it's like a chakra by default, like Rasengan?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Give a direct quote from the data book that says Sasuke Rinnegan from Hagoromo.

      Since apparently you can't read:

      "From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…"

      Idk how in the hell Hagoromo divides his powers between Sasuke and Naruto and Sasuke suddenly has a Rinnegan but you cant put together that Hagoromo granted him the Rinnegan.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The receipt of the Yin Seal from Hagoromo, it says. The receipt of Amenotejikara from Hagoromo, it says. About receiving Rinnegan 0 mentions Hagoromo.

      Why would Hagoromo give him a Rinnegan jutsu if he doesnt have a Rinnegan?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      (Hagoromo - grandfather, I meant it)

      I dont know why

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, say that to Kakashi, who called Senjutsu Naruto and Obito - Six Paths Power.

      What chapter are you referring to so i can explain the context you are missing.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't know why I should ignore using Sasuke senjutsu, because..:

      - his Chidori changed its colour to black, like the first season's curse mark, which senjutsu knows...

      You know who else has black lightning? Darui. You know who doesnt have senjutsu? Darui

      Curse Mark 2 Sasuke had regular colored Chidori when fightning Deidara

      So not all Black Lightning is senjutsu and Senjutsu doesnt always make lightning black

      Madara never said anything about Sasuke having SPS in any way even though he was analyzing everything for us.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - The seals carry six paths sage chakra, as the data book on Chibaku Tensei says.

      The databook doesnt say that the 6 Paths Senjutsu chakra can be drawn out from it to use with other jutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - the entire Sasuke dialogue is set to only six paths senjutsu effectively against Madara.

      Im pretty sure he didnt say that but what chapter so i can see what context you are missing...

      ... oh Sasuke used Chidori Sharp Spear to cut Madara in half so you MUST be musonderstanding something he said.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You put your opinion above the manga again. First of all, nowhere does it say that Naruto can use the annulment/erase of ninjutsu. This jutsu showed only Jinchuriki Ten-tails.

      Naruto is a pseudo-Jinchuriki of the 10 Tails because he has the chakra of all the Bijuu within him and has all the non-Rinnegan abilities of. TTJ. SPSM gives him knowledge of all things so yes he would know how to use the nullification.

      He has TSB and YinYang. That is all he needs for nullification.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Secondly, even if we consider your version, Naruto doesn't have the Yin Release that you need for the Yin-Yang Release.

      Go read the databook entry for Yin and Yang Release.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Give a direct quote from the data book that says Sasuke Rinnegan from Hagoromo.

      Since apparently you can't read:

      "From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…"

      Idk how in the hell Hagoromo divides his powers between Sasuke and Naruto and Sasuke suddenly has a Rinnegan but you cant put together that Hagoromo granted him the Rinnegan.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The receipt of the Yin Seal from Hagoromo, it says. The receipt of Amenotejikara from Hagoromo, it says. About receiving Rinnegan 0 mentions Hagoromo.

      Why would Hagoromo give him a Rinnegan jutsu if he doesnt have a Rinnegan?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      (Hagoromo - grandfather, I meant it)

      I dont know why

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, say that to Kakashi, who called Senjutsu Naruto and Obito - Six Paths Power.

      What chapter are you referring to so i can explain the context you are missing.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't know why I should ignore using Sasuke senjutsu, because..:

      - his Chidori changed its colour to black, like the first season's curse mark, which senjutsu knows...

      You know who else has black lightning? Darui. You know who doesnt have senjutsu? Darui

      Curse Mark 2 Sasuke had regular colored Chidori when fightning Deidara

      So not all Black Lightning is senjutsu and Senjutsu doesnt always make lightning black

      Madara never said anything about Sasuke having SPS in any way even though he was analyzing everything for us.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - The seals carry six paths sage chakra, as the data book on Chibaku Tensei says.

      The databook doesnt say that the 6 Paths Senjutsu chakra can be drawn out from it to use with other jutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - the entire Sasuke dialogue is set to only six paths senjutsu effectively against Madara.

      Im pretty sure he didnt say that but what chapter so i can see what context you are missing...

      ... oh Sasuke used Chidori Sharp Spear to cut Madara in half so you MUST be musonderstanding something he said.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You put your opinion above the manga again. First of all, nowhere does it say that Naruto can use the annulment/erase of ninjutsu. This jutsu showed only Jinchuriki Ten-tails.

      Naruto is a pseudo-Jinchuriki of the 10 Tails because he has the chakra of all the Bijuu within him and has all the non-Rinnegan abilities of. TTJ. SPSM gives him knowledge of all things so yes he would know how to use the nullification.

      He has TSB and YinYang. That is all he needs for nullification.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Secondly, even if we consider your version, Naruto doesn't have the Yin Release that you need for the Yin-Yang Release.

      Go read the databook entry for Yin and Yang Release.

      The translation of OrganicDinosaur is not the best. Check it out for yourself, it's verbatim: "open rinnegan and a print key from Ricudo Sennin." It only talks about getting the seal.

      大筒木カグヤ. インドラの転生者であるサスケは、カグヤの封印を宿命付けられた者でもある。開眼した "輪廻眼" と六道仙人から得た封印の鍵。。。それらはサスケが心より世界を救いたいと願った証だ。.

      Maybe because he knew Sasuke would get Rinnegan, because he knows everything that's going on outside?

      Chapter 680 is Kakashi's words about Naruto's flight. Chapter 689 - Kakashi's words about improving eye strength.

      Madara analyzed everything for us, but he kept quiet about the seals. How so?

      Naruto recovered Guy's body with his seal, why can't Sasuke do that?

      Chapter 674. (even the chapter is called "Rinnegan Sasuke")

      Why does Naruto not have a Yin profile? If you think Naruto has all 7 natural properties, so does Sasuke have them?

      You have not answered the question about TSB. You say it's just a chakra that becomes strong / physical when using the Earth Release effect. Is it?

        Loading editor
    • Seelentau and Organic Dinosaur have near flawless translations. Don't try to discredit them because you were wrong on that part. One last note is that these databooks don't explain literally everything in complete detail so some things need to be extrapolated upon.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: Seelentau and Organic Dinosaur have near flawless translations. Don't try to discredit them because you were wrong on that part. One last note is that these databooks don't explain literally everything in complete detail so some things need to be extrapolated upon.

      I did not ask for translators, but for real native speakers - Japanese. However, even you can check the translation with "jardic".

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The translation of OrganicDinosaur is not the best. Check it out for yourself, it's verbatim: "open rinnegan and a print key from Ricudo Sennin." It only talks about getting the seal.

      大筒木カグヤ. インドラの転生者であるサスケは、カグヤの封印を宿命付けられた者でもある。開眼した "輪廻眼" と六道仙人から得た封印の鍵。。。それらはサスケが心より世界を救いたいと願った証だ。.

      YOU JUST QUOTED IT TALKING ABOUT THE RINNEGAN!

      Organic Dinosaur and Tau know japanese. Unless you know japanese, dont sit here and shit on their translations like they used some halfassed online translation programs.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Maybe because he knew Sasuke would get Rinnegan, because he knows everything that's going on outside?

      He knew about events thay happened in the outside world because he was watching them. He cant see the future.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chapter 680 is Kakashi's words about Naruto's flight.

      I knew you were misquoting it somehow. He said "6 Paths enhanced Madara", not "Six Paths Power Madara"

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chapter 689 - Kakashi's words about improving eye strength.

      Again, i knew you were mischaracterizing what was said. He called it 6 Paths Power. Not 6 Paths Senjutsu. He did not equate them. Obito lost SPS once he was no longer the Jinchuriki. He had no SPS to give Kakashi. Also, guess what? Kakashi is not stated to be an SPS or Senjutsu user anywhere in the series. Manga, anime, or databook.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara analyzed everything for us, but he kept quiet about the seals. How so?

      Because they didn't use them. And Sasuke already yelled about what they are.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto recovered Guy's body with his seal, why can't Sasuke do that?

      If Naruto used the seal to save Guy. Naruto himself has healing abilities

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chapter 674. (even the chapter is called "Rinnegan Sasuke")

      The title chapter doesnt change the fact that Hagoromo gave him power that awakened his Rinnegan. Sasuke having Rinnegan is a direct result of what Hagoromo did to him

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why does Naruto not have a Yin profile? If you think Naruto has all 7 natural properties, so does Sasuke have them?

      Sasuke isnt stated or shown to have them during the war. Naruto is.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You have not answered the question about TSB. You say it's just a chakra that becomes strong / physical when using the Earth Release effect. Is it?

      The answer you are looking for is in the TSB databook entry

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The translation of OrganicDinosaur is not the best. Check it out for yourself, it's verbatim: "open rinnegan and a print key from Ricudo Sennin." It only talks about getting the seal.

      大筒木カグヤ. インドラの転生者であるサスケは、カグヤの封印を宿命付けられた者でもある。開眼した "輪廻眼" と六道仙人から得た封印の鍵。。。それらはサスケが心より世界を救いたいと願った証だ。.

      YOU JUST QUOTED IT TALKING ABOUT THE RINNEGAN!

      Organic Dinosaur and Tau know japanese. Unless you know japanese, dont sit here and shit on their translations like they used some halfassed online translation programs.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Maybe because he knew Sasuke would get Rinnegan, because he knows everything that's going on outside?

      He knew about events thay happened in the outside world because he was watching them. He cant see the future.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chapter 680 is Kakashi's words about Naruto's flight.

      I knew you were misquoting it somehow. He said "6 Paths enhanced Madara", not "Six Paths Power Madara"

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chapter 689 - Kakashi's words about improving eye strength.

      Again, i knew you were mischaracterizing what was said. He called it 6 Paths Power. Not 6 Paths Senjutsu. He did not equate them. Obito lost SPS once he was no longer the Jinchuriki. He had no SPS to give Kakashi. Also, guess what? Kakashi is not stated to be an SPS or Senjutsu user anywhere in the series. Manga, anime, or databook.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara analyzed everything for us, but he kept quiet about the seals. How so?

      Because they didn't use them. And Sasuke already yelled about what they are.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto recovered Guy's body with his seal, why can't Sasuke do that?

      If Naruto used the seal to save Guy. Naruto himself has healing abilities

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chapter 674. (even the chapter is called "Rinnegan Sasuke")

      The title chapter doesnt change the fact that Hagoromo gave him power that awakened his Rinnegan. Sasuke having Rinnegan is a direct result of what Hagoromo did to him

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why does Naruto not have a Yin profile? If you think Naruto has all 7 natural properties, so does Sasuke have them?

      Sasuke isnt stated or shown to have them during the war. Naruto is.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You have not answered the question about TSB. You say it's just a chakra that becomes strong / physical when using the Earth Release effect. Is it?

      The answer you are looking for is in the TSB databook entry

      Okay, I can discuss the extremes of translation, but I'm still interested in something else:

      Why did Kakashi say that? Or does Naruto now also have six paths of power?

      Have you forgotten that Obito absorbed senjutsu chakra from Madara? This chakra he wore until his death, the same chakra with his he gave to Kakashi. Kakashi called it six paths power.

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:


      Why did Kakashi say that? Or does Naruto now also have six paths of power?

      He has 6 Paths chakra. So he has 6 Paths Power.

      He also has 6 Paths Senjutsu

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Have you forgotten that Obito absorbed senjutsu chakra from Madara? This chakra he wore until his death, the same chakra with his he gave to Kakashi.

      He stole Senjutsu, not 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      Even if he took SPS, he was out if that chakra by the time Naruto woke up.

      If he had any left over then Madara took it.

      If he still had any left over after thatbthen he lost it when he went into a near-death state and Black Zetsu took control of him

      If he had any left after that, he lost it when he died.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Kakashi called it six paths power.

      6 Paths Power=/=SPS.

      Both Kakashi and Sasuke had 6 Paths Power and neither one of them are listed/described as Senjutsu users or SPS users and none of their moves are listed as senjutsu/SPS

      On top of that, the Rinnegan is awakened in people who have obtained Hagoromo's chakra and when that happens they get a power boost and access to the 6 Paths technique, none of which are SPS. A LOT of things are called 6 Paths and are not 6 Paths Senjutsu

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:


      Why did Kakashi say that? Or does Naruto now also have six paths of power?

      He has 6 Paths chakra. So he has 6 Paths Power.

      He also has 6 Paths Senjutsu

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Have you forgotten that Obito absorbed senjutsu chakra from Madara? This chakra he wore until his death, the same chakra with his he gave to Kakashi.

      He stole Senjutsu, not 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      Even if he took SPS, he was out if that chakra by the time Naruto woke up.

      If he had any left over then Madara took it.

      If he still had any left over after thatbthen he lost it when he went into a near-death state and Black Zetsu took control of him

      If he had any left after that, he lost it when he died.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Kakashi called it six paths power.

      6 Paths Power=/=SPS.

      Both Kakashi and Sasuke had 6 Paths Power and neither one of them are listed/described as Senjutsu users or SPS users and none of their moves are listed as senjutsu/SPS

      On top of that, the Rinnegan is awakened in people who have obtained Hagoromo's chakra and when that happens they get a power boost and access to the 6 Paths technique, none of which are SPS. A LOT of things are called 6 Paths and are not 6 Paths Senjutsu

      Jinchuriki Ten-tails use senjutsu 6 paths, not simple senjutsu.

      Then how did Kakashi have the power of 6 paths? And Obito and Naruto had the body of the Sage? Can it be classified as Yang Six Paths Power? I think I'm beginning to understand you, Obito was Jinchuriki Ten-tails, so Obito still retains some of the power of six paths power, like sand control at Gaara, or Lava Release at Roshi. So six paths power Obito ≠ six paths power Sasuke?

      Does flying provide six paths of power, or six paths senjutsu? I don't understand Kakashi's words, to be honest. In my translation he says: Madara also flew because he had six paths of power. Naruto uses six paths senjutsu.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Jinchuriki Ten-tails use senjutsu 6 paths, not simple senjutsu.

      Obito only stole senjutsu from Madara. Madara said so himself.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Then how did Kakashi have the power of 6 paths?

      Because Obito lent it to him

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And Obito and Naruto had the body of the Sage? Can it be classified as Yang Six Paths Power?

      No. 6 Paths Chakra is its own kind of chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I think I'm beginning to understand you, Obito was Jinchuriki Ten-tails, so Obito still retains some of the power of six paths power, like sand control at Gaara, or Lava Release at Roshi.

      Yes. Although its questionable if those Jin retained those powers from their Bijuu but lets not get into that.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So six paths power Obito ≠ six paths power Sasuke?

      They are the same 6 Paths power

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Does flying provide six paths of power, or six paths senjutsu?

      SPS

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't understand Kakashi's words, to be honest. In my translation he says: Madara also flew because he had six paths of power. Naruto uses six paths senjutsu.

      That was a mistranslation. He said 6 Paths Chakra. The databook clarifies that it was SPS

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Jinchuriki Ten-tails use senjutsu 6 paths, not simple senjutsu.

      Obito only stole senjutsu from Madara. Madara said so himself.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Then how did Kakashi have the power of 6 paths?

      Because Obito lent it to him

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And Obito and Naruto had the body of the Sage? Can it be classified as Yang Six Paths Power?

      No. 6 Paths Chakra is its own kind of chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I think I'm beginning to understand you, Obito was Jinchuriki Ten-tails, so Obito still retains some of the power of six paths power, like sand control at Gaara, or Lava Release at Roshi.

      Yes. Although its questionable if those Jin retained those powers from their Bijuu but lets not get into that.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So six paths power Obito ≠ six paths power Sasuke?

      They are the same 6 Paths power

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Does flying provide six paths of power, or six paths senjutsu?

      SPS

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't understand Kakashi's words, to be honest. In my translation he says: Madara also flew because he had six paths of power. Naruto uses six paths senjutsu.

      That was a mistranslation. He said 6 Paths Chakra. The databook clarifies that it was SPS

      Okay, we concluded that Obito had six paths of power. According to you, the chakra six paths can not be canceled / erased, but when Madara attacks Obito, Madara marks exactly senjutsu, not the six paths power.

      Why is it the same if Obito only has the body six paths, and Saske's eyes? Or do you mean that the formation of Jinchuriki Ten-tails and Rinnegan's epiphany are the ways to achieve the chakra six paths?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, we concluded that Obito had six paths of power. According to you, the chakra six paths can not be canceled / erased, but when Madara attacks Obito, Madara marks exactly senjutsu, not the six paths power.

      ... and? He wasnt wrong

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why is it the same if Obito only has the body six paths, and Saske's eyes?

      What?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Or do you mean that the formation of Jinchuriki Ten-tails and Rinnegan's epiphany are the ways to achieve the chakra six paths?

      What?

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, we concluded that Obito had six paths of power. According to you, the chakra six paths can not be canceled / erased, but when Madara attacks Obito, Madara marks exactly senjutsu, not the six paths power.

      ... and? He wasnt wrong

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why is it the same if Obito only has the body six paths, and Saske's eyes?

      What?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Or do you mean that the formation of Jinchuriki Ten-tails and Rinnegan's epiphany are the ways to achieve the chakra six paths?

      What?

      He wasn't wrong, of course, but why noted senjutsu and not six paths power?

      How is six paths of power achieved? Does the user get it from Rinnegan or 9 Tailed Beast / Ten-tails? Or does the user initially get / has six paths of power from which he uses Rinnegan or Six Paths Sage Modo?

      Okay, so Kakashi meant six paths of power when he talked about flying Naruto instead of six paths senjutsu? So flying is six paths power, not six paths senjutsu?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      He wasn't wrong, of course, but why noted senjutsu and not six paths power?

      Because he stole senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is six paths of power achieved? Does the user get it from Rinnegan or 9 Tailed Beast / Ten-tails? Or does the user initially get / has six paths of power from which he uses Rinnegan or Six Paths Sage Modo?

      Recieve chakra from Hagoromo

      Become TTJ

      Possibly getting chakra from Kaguya. Possibly getting chakra from an Otsutsuki.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, so Kakashi meant six paths of power when he talked about flying Naruto instead of six paths senjutsu?

      Kakashi said 6 Paths Chakra. Which isnt wrong, its just not completely right

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So flying is six paths power, not six paths senjutsu?

      The answer you are looking for is in the 6 Paths Sage Mode databook entry

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      He wasn't wrong, of course, but why noted senjutsu and not six paths power?

      Because he stole senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is six paths of power achieved? Does the user get it from Rinnegan or 9 Tailed Beast / Ten-tails? Or does the user initially get / has six paths of power from which he uses Rinnegan or Six Paths Sage Modo?

      Recieve chakra from Hagoromo

      Become TTJ

      Possibly getting chakra from Kaguya. Possibly getting chakra from an Otsutsuki.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, so Kakashi meant six paths of power when he talked about flying Naruto instead of six paths senjutsu?

      Kakashi said 6 Paths Chakra. Which isnt wrong, its just not completely right

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So flying is six paths power, not six paths senjutsu?

      The answer you are looking for is in the 6 Paths Sage Mode databook entry

      Madara did not receive the chakra from Hagoromo, he himself received the power of six paths, the epiphany of Rinnegan. Is that a correct statement?

      Why do you think Naruto and Sasuke have six paths of power if Naruto is limited to six paths yang power and Sasuke to six paths yin power?

      Yes, the data book specifies that flying is the result of Six Paths Senjutsu. But, why does Kakashi call it six paths chakra?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara did not receive the chakra from Hagoromo, he himself received the power of six paths, the epiphany of Rinnegan. Is that a correct statement?

      I dont know what "epiphany of Rinnegan is"

      Madara recreated Hagoromo's chakra which is what activated his Rinnegan.

      Later on he became the TTJ

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why do you think Naruto and Sasuke have six paths of power if Naruto is limited to six paths yang power and Sasuke to six paths yin power?

      if i recall correctly, 6 Paths Yang Power and 6 Paths Yin Power are what the seals.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, the data book specifies that flying is the result of Six Paths Senjutsu. But, why does Kakashi call it six paths chakra?

      Because 6 Paths Chakra is a part of SPSM. I dont think Kakashi had a clear understanding of 6 Paths stuff in general. That is why the databooks clarified those things

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara did not receive the chakra from Hagoromo, he himself received the power of six paths, the epiphany of Rinnegan. Is that a correct statement?

      I dont know what "epiphany of Rinnegan is"

      Madara recreated Hagoromo's chakra which is what activated his Rinnegan.

      Later on he became the TTJ

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why do you think Naruto and Sasuke have six paths of power if Naruto is limited to six paths yang power and Sasuke to six paths yin power?

      if i recall correctly, 6 Paths Yang Power and 6 Paths Yin Power are what the seals.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, the data book specifies that flying is the result of Six Paths Senjutsu. But, why does Kakashi call it six paths chakra?

      Because 6 Paths Chakra is a part of SPSM. I dont think Kakashi had a clear understanding of 6 Paths stuff in general. That is why the databooks clarified those things

      Well, if everyone's chakra is the same, why didn't anyone except Indra's reincarnations get Rinnegan when they got that chakra?

      By the way, Madara calls his condition Jinchuriki Ten-tails as six paths power, although he had Rinnegan, which is strange.

      Six paths power - the Hagoromo chakra?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, if everyone's chakra is the same, why didn't anyone except Indra's reincarnations get Rinnegan when they got that chakra?

      ???

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      By the way, Madara calls his condition Jinchuriki Ten-tails as six paths power, although he had Rinnegan, which is strange.

      What chapter.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Six paths power - the Hagoromo chakra?

      Its a power that comes from 6 Paths Chakra. Which Hagoromo has and can be obtained. Or becoming TTJ

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Well, if everyone's chakra is the same, why didn't anyone except Indra's reincarnations get Rinnegan when they got that chakra?

      ???

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      By the way, Madara calls his condition Jinchuriki Ten-tails as six paths power, although he had Rinnegan, which is strange.

      What chapter.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Six paths power - the Hagoromo chakra?

      Its a power that comes from 6 Paths Chakra. Which Hagoromo has and can be obtained. Or becoming TTJ

      Okay, can you list all users of the chakra six paths / six paths power? Obito already in the battle with Konan said that he has six paths power, because it has the power of Hashirama.

      The question about the chakra is, why do only Indra's reincarnations get Rinnegan by achieving the chakra six paths / six paths power? Does this mean that there are different aspects of the chakra six paths, such as the eyes six paths or the body six paths?

      Volume 69, chapter 663.

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, can you list all users of the chakra six paths / six paths power?

      • Madara
      • Sasuke
      • Naruto
      • Hagoromo
      • Hamura
      • Kaguya
      • Obito

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Obito already in the battle with Konan said that he has six paths power, because it has the power of Hashirama.

      No because he didnt have Madara's chakra

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The question about the chakra is, why do only Indra's reincarnations get Rinnegan by achieving the chakra six paths / six paths power?

      Provably because Indra inherited the eyes

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Does this mean that there are different aspects of the chakra six paths, such as the eyes six paths or the body six paths?

      No

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Volume 69, chapter 663.

      Welp. In that case 6 Paths Power seems like an umbrella term for 6 Paths abilities

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, can you list all users of the chakra six paths / six paths power?

      • Madara
      • Sasuke
      • Naruto
      • Hagoromo
      • Hamura
      • Kaguya
      • Obito

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Obito already in the battle with Konan said that he has six paths power, because it has the power of Hashirama.

      No because he didnt have Madara's chakra

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The question about the chakra is, why do only Indra's reincarnations get Rinnegan by achieving the chakra six paths / six paths power?

      Provably because Indra inherited the eyes

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Does this mean that there are different aspects of the chakra six paths, such as the eyes six paths or the body six paths?

      No

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Volume 69, chapter 663.

      Welp. In that case 6 Paths Power seems like an umbrella term for 6 Paths abilities

      Madara: got this chakra by mixing his chakra with Hashirama.

      Naruto: how does he form the chakra? Why do you think Naruto has a full chakra of six paths and not yang six paths power? The data book claims that Hagoromo has divided his power between them.

      Sasuke: the question is the same as how does he form the chakra? Why do you think Sasuke has a complete chakra of six paths and not Yin six paths power? The book says that Hagoromo has divided his power between them. Besides that, why do you ignore Hashirama's chakra and his cells in Sasuke?

      Hagoromo, Hamura, Kaguya: It makes sense.

      Obito: you mean version of Jinchuriki Ten-tails and after? But, why do you ignore all that is said in the battle with Konan? It was about that Obito can use Izanagi because it has Uchiha and Senju's power, to which Konan replied that it is six paths power and it can't have that kind of power, and then there is a story about Hashirama cells.

      Or are you saying that Obito then spoke for Madara, so Obito himself has no complete Isanagi?

      Why not Nagato? Rinegan Madara doesn't give him the chakra?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto: how does he form the chakra? Why do you think Naruto has a full chakra of six paths and not yang six paths power? The data book claims that Hagoromo has divided his power between them.

      6 Paths Yang power is the name if the seal. Naruto has YinYang release so Hagoromo didnt divide his powers by Yin and Yang. That isnt stated anywhere

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Sasuke: the question is the same as how does he form the chakra? Why do you think Sasuke has a complete chakra of six paths and not Yin six paths power? The book says that Hagoromo has divided his power between them.

      Nothing says he dividee powers up by Yin and Yang.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Besides that, why do you ignore Hashirama's chakra and his cells in Sasuke?

      Because its super vague as whether he actually got some. It has been an argument in the fandom for years now. Although Sasuke's lack of healing abilities in Boruto do not suggest he has them.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Obito: you mean version of Jinchuriki Ten-tails and after?

      Yep

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But, why do you ignore all that is said in the battle with Konan? It was about that Obito can use Izanagi because it has Uchiha and Senju's power, to which Konan replied that it is six paths power and it can't have that kind of power, and then there is a story about Hashirama cells.

      Itachi later said that yhe Uchiha had a problem with abusing Izanagi, so Hashirama cells are not necessary for it. Madara used it in a flashback without Hashi cells.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why not Nagato?

      There is no way to determine if 6 Paths Chakra stays with the user after transplanted Rinnegan are removed. I guess he has it while he has the Rinnegan

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Rinegan Madara doesn't give him the chakra?

      ???

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto: how does he form the chakra? Why do you think Naruto has a full chakra of six paths and not yang six paths power? The data book claims that Hagoromo has divided his power between them.

      6 Paths Yang power is the name if the seal. Naruto has YinYang release so Hagoromo didnt divide his powers by Yin and Yang. That isnt stated anywhere

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Sasuke: the question is the same as how does he form the chakra? Why do you think Sasuke has a complete chakra of six paths and not Yin six paths power? The book says that Hagoromo has divided his power between them.

      Nothing says he dividee powers up by Yin and Yang.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Besides that, why do you ignore Hashirama's chakra and his cells in Sasuke?

      Because its super vague as whether he actually got some. It has been an argument in the fandom for years now. Although Sasuke's lack of healing abilities in Boruto do not suggest he has them.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Obito: you mean version of Jinchuriki Ten-tails and after?

      Yep

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But, why do you ignore all that is said in the battle with Konan? It was about that Obito can use Izanagi because it has Uchiha and Senju's power, to which Konan replied that it is six paths power and it can't have that kind of power, and then there is a story about Hashirama cells.

      Itachi later said that yhe Uchiha had a problem with abusing Izanagi, so Hashirama cells are not necessary for it. Madara used it in a flashback without Hashi cells.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why not Nagato?

      There is no way to determine if 6 Paths Chakra stays with the user after transplanted Rinnegan are removed. I guess he has it while he has the Rinnegan

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Rinegan Madara doesn't give him the chakra?

      ???

      1) Still, why do you think Obito stole a simple chakra senjutsa? Jinchuriki Ten-tails have a simple senjutsu and not six paths senjutsu? But when he met Naruto and Sasuke, Madara said he owned Rinnegan and six paths senjutsu.

      2) Well, then how did you know that Hagoromo gave them the chakra six paths? The manga shows that he only gave the seal of Yin-Yang. The data book says that Naruto got Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke got Amenotejikara.

      3) I don't care about retcon or Izanagi. Konan initially knew that six paths power is achieved by the power of Uchiha and Senju. Kabuto confirmed that, too. Although, as far as Izanagi is concerned, Obito used a complete form and Danzo used an unfinished one. Obviously these are different versions of Izanagi and not all of them require Hashirama/Senju cells.

      4) Rinnegan is one result of the chakra six paths / six paths power, isn't it?

      5) How do Naruto and Sasuke form the chakra six paths? Their chakra = chakra six paths, or can they form it?

      5.1) Why do they need Hagoromo if Sasuke can have the six paths chakra because of the Hashirama cells and Naruto can have it because of the 9 Tailed Beast chakra?

      6) If Naruto and Sasuke have identical chakra six paths, why does Naruto say six paths sage chakra and Sasuke say six paths power?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Still, why do you think Obito stole a simple chakra senjutsa? Jinchuriki Ten-tails have a simple senjutsu and not six paths senjutsu? But when he met Naruto and Sasuke, Madara said he owned Rinnegan and six paths senjutsu.

      Because he was stated to have stolen Senjutsu, not 6 Paths Senjutsu

      He didnt get any signifiers of SPS like TSB or a physical transformation.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) Well, then how did you know that Hagoromo gave them the chakra six paths? The manga shows that he only gave the seal of Yin-Yang.

      It is stated multiple times in the manga that he gave them their new powers.

      The databook says he divided his powers between them. Guess what his 2 biggest powers are. 6 Paths Senjutsu and Rinnegan.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The data book says that Naruto got Six Paths Sage Mode

      From Hagoromo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      and Sasuke got Amenotejikara.

      Databooksays he got the Rinnegan from Hagoromo, very explicitly. Since Amenotejikara is a Rinnegan ability, then by extension he got that from Hagoromo as well.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) I don't care about retcon or Izanagi. Konan initially knew that six paths power is achieved by the power of Uchiha and Senju.

      And it was clarified later on that it couldnt be any Uchiha/Senju. Had to be transmigrants.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Kabuto confirmed that, too. Although, as far as Izanagi is concerned, Obito used a complete form and Danzo used an unfinished one. Obviously these are different versions of Izanagi and not all of them require Hashirama/Senju cells.

      Yeaaaa.... no. Obito was just talking mad shit. There was nothing different between his Izanagi and Danzo's. Madara used Izanagi without Senju power and so did many Uchiha in the past, so much so that Izanami needed to be created to orecent the abuse if Izanagi.

      Kishimoto very clearly changed his mind about how he wanted Izanagi to work.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) Rinnegan is one result of the chakra six paths / six paths power, isn't it?

      Seemingly for Indra transmigrants

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      5) How do Naruto and Sasuke form the chakra six paths? Their chakra = chakra six paths, or can they form it?

      Seems to be a permenant upgrade from Hagormo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      5.1) Why do they need Hagoromo if Sasuke can have the six paths chakra because of the Hashirama cells

      He didnt get Hashirama cells from Kabuto. In the japanese version he says that he used his research on Hashirama cells to heal Sasuke. Even though all signs point to him not having it. Ue doesnt have Wood Release or healing abilities that come with Hashirama cells either

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      and Naruto can have it because of the 9 Tailed Beast chakra?

      So that if ended up losing the bijuu chakra he would still have SPSM. From what we have seen the complete Juubi is needed for SPS, not just the tailed beasts the Gedo Mazo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      6) If Naruto and Sasuke have identical chakra six paths, why does Naruto say six paths sage chakra and Sasuke say six paths power?

      They got the same chakra, not the same abilities. Naruto got SPSM most likely because he already mastered Sage Mode and because he had the tailed beast chakras. It made more sense to give it to him.

      Sasuke got Rinnegan most likely because he had the eyes. In combination with the Sharingan he would be able to use it more efficiantly than Naruto.

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero

      1) Ten-tails gives his Jinchuriki senjutsu or six paths senjutsu? A rhetorical question, since Madara said it was six paths senjutsu. Or answer, where did the simple chakra senjutsu come from?

      1.1) You probably forgot, but he created TSB. The physical transformation is the result of the Ten-tails influence

      2) Yes, and these forces are seals. Naruto tells us how Sasuke feels, and that's because of the power they got from Hagoromo. Later it turns out that Naruto and Sasuke feel each other because of the resonance of the seals.

      2.1) Yes, and it shows how Hagoromo gives them the stamps. Guess what they got.

      3) Okay, let's skip this conversation.

      4) Does it bother you that Kuro Zetsu followed Indra's reincarnations in Uchiha as well as Ashura's reincarnations in Senju? He was hoping that by crossing, one of them could get Rinnegan. Exactly, or not just the reincarnation of Indra by Uchiha.

      4.1) No, I mean that Sasuke originally got the chakra six paths that allowed him to open Rinnegan?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Ten-tails gives his Jinchuriki senjutsu or six paths senjutsu? A rhetorical question, since Madara said it was six paths senjutsu. Or answer, where did the simple chakra senjutsu come from?

      I mean, 6 Paths Senjutsu is 6 Paths chakra+natural energy sooo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1.1) You probably forgot, but he created TSB. The physical transformation is the result of the Ten-tails influence

      No he he didnt. He manipulated Black Zetsu's body into a staff

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) Yes, and these forces are seals.

      And the Rinnegan. And SPSM. And 6 Paths Chakra. As per the databook and Hagormoo's own words. Multiple times. Even after they lost the seals he says he left power to them.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Later it turns out that Naruto and Sasuke feel each other because of the resonance of the seals.

      And?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2.1) Yes, and it shows how Hagoromo gives them the stamps. Guess what they got.

      It doesnt show that specifically. Hagoroml stated he gave them both power and they show up with new abilities and the seals.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) Okay, let's skip this conversation.

      I dont know what conversation you are referring to

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) Does it bother you that Kuro Zetsu followed Indra's reincarnations in Uchiha as well as Ashura's reincarnations in Senju? He was hoping that by crossing, one of them could get Rinnegan. Exactly, or not just the reincarnation of Indra by Uchiha.

      What are you talking about?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.1) No, I mean that Sasuke originally got the chakra six paths that allowed him to open Rinnegan?

      He got these things from Hagoromo

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Ten-tails gives his Jinchuriki senjutsu or six paths senjutsu? A rhetorical question, since Madara said it was six paths senjutsu. Or answer, where did the simple chakra senjutsu come from?

      I mean, 6 Paths Senjutsu is 6 Paths chakra+natural energy sooo

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1.1) You probably forgot, but he created TSB. The physical transformation is the result of the Ten-tails influence

      No he he didnt. He manipulated Black Zetsu's body into a staff

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) Yes, and these forces are seals.

      And the Rinnegan. And SPSM. And 6 Paths Chakra. As per the databook and Hagormoo's own words. Multiple times. Even after they lost the seals he says he left power to them.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Later it turns out that Naruto and Sasuke feel each other because of the resonance of the seals.

      And?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2.1) Yes, and it shows how Hagoromo gives them the stamps. Guess what they got.

      It doesnt show that specifically. Hagoroml stated he gave them both power and they show up with new abilities and the seals.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) Okay, let's skip this conversation.

      I dont know what conversation you are referring to

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) Does it bother you that Kuro Zetsu followed Indra's reincarnations in Uchiha as well as Ashura's reincarnations in Senju? He was hoping that by crossing, one of them could get Rinnegan. Exactly, or not just the reincarnation of Indra by Uchiha.

      What are you talking about?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.1) No, I mean that Sasuke originally got the chakra six paths that allowed him to open Rinnegan?

      He got these things from Hagoromo

      1) Then what makes you think Obito stole a simple senjutsu chakra and not a chakra six paths senjutsu? Just because Madara said so? Also Madara called the state of Jinchuriki Ten-tails as a transformation of the sage, when the data book says that their state is called the transformation of the sage six paths

      1.1) What? The data book says that TSB only appears for users with six paths senjutsu

      2) The power Hagoromo spoke about at the end is the legacy of Ninja Creed / Ninshu. Previously, Hagoromo had given everything to one son, which caused the war. Now he has divided the power into two. Otherwise, show me where Ashura is listed as a user of six paths power. (he's not even on your list)

      2.1) What and? Naruto says directly that the power he received from Hagoromo allows him to feel Sasuke. This force is the Yang seal. There is no other force he has mentioned. Later, the data book says that SPSM was obtained from Hagoromo. If you remember the moments from the manga, Naruto was only talking about the seal.

      3) I'm numbering for a reason. You can guess. Let's skip the discussion about Izanagi.

      4) You say that Rinnegan is a gift for Indra's reincarnations only. But Kuro Zetsu followed both Uchiha and Senju, hoping to cross them and get Rinnegan. Do you understand?

      4.1) Don't chakra six paths give Indra's reincarnations...Rinnegan?

      4.2) What did the chakra six paths give Naruto? Why doesn't he use it in this form like Sasuke? Naruto uses the chakra six paths for six paths senjutsu, but why doesn't he just use it?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Then what makes you think Obito stole a simple senjutsu chakra and not a chakra six paths senjutsu? Just because Madara said so? Also Madara called the state of Jinchuriki Ten-tails as a transformation of the sage, when the data book says that their state is called the transformation of the sage six paths

      Because 6 Paths Sage is 6 Paths Sage. Safe is Sage.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1.1) What? The data book says that TSB only appears for users with six paths senjutsu

      Read tge 6 Paths Sage Mode entry

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) The power Hagoromo spoke about at the end is the legacy of Ninja Creed / Ninshu. Previously, Hagoromo had given everything to one son, which caused the war. Now he has divided the power into two. Otherwise, show me where Ashura is listed as a user of six paths power. (he's not even on your list)

      I never said anything about Ashura. Hagoromo says he gave Sasuke and Naruto power. The databooks say he gave Naruto and Sasuke their powers. End of story

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2.1) What and? Naruto says directly that the power he received from Hagoromo allows him to feel Sasuke. This force is the Yang seal. There is no other force he has mentioned. Later, the data book says that SPSM was obtained from Hagoromo. If you remember the moments from the manga, Naruto was only talking about the seal.

      Tgem being able to sense eachother through the seals doesnt invalidate that Hagoromo gave them tge rest of their abilities.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) You say that Rinnegan is a gift for Indra's reincarnations only. But Kuro Zetsu followed both Uchiha and Senju, hoping to cross them and get Rinnegan. Do you understand?

      And we dont know how he went about doing that. He may have tried to get Ashura reincarnates to steal Indra reincarnate's eyes

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.1) Don't chakra six paths give Indra's reincarnations...Rinnegan?

      It would be more accurate to say it would turn Indra's reincarnates eyes into Rinnegan

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.2) What did the chakra six paths give Naruto?

      Makes him stronger. Like 6 Paths chakra does to anybody who has it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why doesn't he use it in this form like Sasuke?

      Why would he not use 6 Paths Senjutsu? Its stronger than 6 Paths cgakra alone and it has all kinds of added abilities.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto uses the chakra six paths for six paths senjutsu, but why doesn't he just use it?

      He always uses it. Its a part of him now

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Then what makes you think Obito stole a simple senjutsu chakra and not a chakra six paths senjutsu? Just because Madara said so? Also Madara called the state of Jinchuriki Ten-tails as a transformation of the sage, when the data book says that their state is called the transformation of the sage six paths

      Because 6 Paths Sage is 6 Paths Sage. Safe is Sage.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1.1) What? The data book says that TSB only appears for users with six paths senjutsu

      Read tge 6 Paths Sage Mode entry

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) The power Hagoromo spoke about at the end is the legacy of Ninja Creed / Ninshu. Previously, Hagoromo had given everything to one son, which caused the war. Now he has divided the power into two. Otherwise, show me where Ashura is listed as a user of six paths power. (he's not even on your list)

      I never said anything about Ashura. Hagoromo says he gave Sasuke and Naruto power. The databooks say he gave Naruto and Sasuke their powers. End of story

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2.1) What and? Naruto says directly that the power he received from Hagoromo allows him to feel Sasuke. This force is the Yang seal. There is no other force he has mentioned. Later, the data book says that SPSM was obtained from Hagoromo. If you remember the moments from the manga, Naruto was only talking about the seal.

      Tgem being able to sense eachother through the seals doesnt invalidate that Hagoromo gave them tge rest of their abilities.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) You say that Rinnegan is a gift for Indra's reincarnations only. But Kuro Zetsu followed both Uchiha and Senju, hoping to cross them and get Rinnegan. Do you understand?

      And we dont know how he went about doing that. He may have tried to get Ashura reincarnates to steal Indra reincarnate's eyes

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.1) Don't chakra six paths give Indra's reincarnations...Rinnegan?

      It would be more accurate to say it would turn Indra's reincarnates eyes into Rinnegan

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.2) What did the chakra six paths give Naruto?

      Makes him stronger. Like 6 Paths chakra does to anybody who has it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Why doesn't he use it in this form like Sasuke?

      Why would he not use 6 Paths Senjutsu? Its stronger than 6 Paths cgakra alone and it has all kinds of added abilities.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto uses the chakra six paths for six paths senjutsu, but why doesn't he just use it?

      He always uses it. Its a part of him now

      1) Okay, I've lost my narrative line. What exactly did you steal from Obito? And if it's sage chakra, then where is it from, because Ten-tails has six paths senjutsu?

      2) Reread the chapters when Hagoromo gave them the seals. Hagoromo makes it clear that he will give Sasuke power, because last time he gave Indra nothing, so he started the war. Last time, Hagoromo only gave power to Ashura, but this power is the legacy of Ninshu. Ashura didn't get anything but that.

      3) Well, you are guided by what Naruto and Sasuke say in the manga that they got six paths of power. Name the chapter, please. Since I only remember what Naruto and Sasuke said about seals.

      4) But Sasuke turned Itachi's eyes into Rinnegan...

      4.1) During the discussion with you, I had the opinion that:

      - Indra and his reincarnation, upon receiving the chakra six paths get Rinnegan.

      - but the immediate question is, what do Ashura's reincarnations get if they get the same chakra as Indra's reincarnations? Just the ability to create / use six paths senjutsu?

      If so, I agree with you.

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Okay, I've lost my narrative line. What exactly did you steal from Obito? And if it's sage chakra, then where is it from, because Ten-tails has six paths senjutsu?

      He stole senjutsu. SPS is a form of Senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) Reread the chapters when Hagoromo gave them the seals. Hagoromo makes it clear that he will give Sasuke power, because last time he gave Indra nothing, so he started the war. Last time, Hagoromo only gave power to Ashura, but this power is the legacy of Ninshu. Ashura didn't get anything but that.

      In the context of Naruto and Sasuke, he literally gave them powers and abilities. The databooks say it. Hagormo says it.

      It doesnt matter what he left Ashura. He may have given him power, we dont know.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) Well, you are guided by what Naruto and Sasuke say in the manga that they got six paths of power. Name the chapter, please. Since I only remember what Naruto and Sasuke said about seals.

      Name what for what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) But Sasuke turned Itachi's eyes into Rinnegan...

      Because Hagoromo gave him Rinnegan. Also, Sasuke's chakra merged with the chakra in Itachi's eyes. They are part of him now.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.1) During the discussion with you, I had the opinion that:

      - Indra and his reincarnation, upon receiving the chakra six paths get Rinnegan.

      Over time yes

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - but the immediate question is, what do Ashura's reincarnations get if they get the same chakra as Indra's reincarnations? Just the ability to create / use six paths senjutsu?

      They would have to learn Senjutsu for that.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) Okay, I've lost my narrative line. What exactly did you steal from Obito? And if it's sage chakra, then where is it from, because Ten-tails has six paths senjutsu?

      He stole senjutsu. SPS is a form of Senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) Reread the chapters when Hagoromo gave them the seals. Hagoromo makes it clear that he will give Sasuke power, because last time he gave Indra nothing, so he started the war. Last time, Hagoromo only gave power to Ashura, but this power is the legacy of Ninshu. Ashura didn't get anything but that.

      In the context of Naruto and Sasuke, he literally gave them powers and abilities. The databooks say it. Hagormo says it.

      It doesnt matter what he left Ashura. He may have given him power, we dont know.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) Well, you are guided by what Naruto and Sasuke say in the manga that they got six paths of power. Name the chapter, please. Since I only remember what Naruto and Sasuke said about seals.

      Name what for what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) But Sasuke turned Itachi's eyes into Rinnegan...

      Because Hagoromo gave him Rinnegan. Also, Sasuke's chakra merged with the chakra in Itachi's eyes. They are part of him now.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4.1) During the discussion with you, I had the opinion that:

      - Indra and his reincarnation, upon receiving the chakra six paths get Rinnegan.

      Over time yes

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - but the immediate question is, what do Ashura's reincarnations get if they get the same chakra as Indra's reincarnations? Just the ability to create / use six paths senjutsu?

      They would have to learn Senjutsu for that.

      1) I understand that this is a form of senjutsu. But that's what senjutsu owns Ten-tails, isn't it? It's from him that Jinchuriki Ten-tails have senjutsu six paths.

      2) okay, let's say it is.

      3) So it turns out that chakra six paths gives reincarnation of Indra Rinnegan, and reincarnation of Ashura, provided that he owns Sage Modo, the ability to use SPSM? Are you not embarrassed by this restriction?

      Some can be reincarnated by Rinnegan, while others need to master Sage Modo...

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) I understand that this is a form of senjutsu. But that's what senjutsu owns Ten-tails, isn't it? It's from him that Jinchuriki Ten-tails have senjutsu six paths.

      Im not quite undestanding what you are trying to say here

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) So it turns out that chakra six paths gives reincarnation of Indra Rinnegan, and reincarnation of Ashura, provided that he owns Sage Modo, the ability to use SPSM?

      Yep

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Are you not embarrassed by this restriction?

      Why would i be embaressed? I didnt write the story or make the rules.

      Besides, it fits perfectly with Ashura and Indra's themes:

      • Indra (and his reincanates), becomes strong through natural talent and ability gains Rinnegan.
      • Ashura (and his reincarnates) need to work hard and learn from othersto become strong.
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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) I understand that this is a form of senjutsu. But that's what senjutsu owns Ten-tails, isn't it? It's from him that Jinchuriki Ten-tails have senjutsu six paths.

      Im not quite undestanding what you are trying to say here

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) So it turns out that chakra six paths gives reincarnation of Indra Rinnegan, and reincarnation of Ashura, provided that he owns Sage Modo, the ability to use SPSM?

      Yep

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Are you not embarrassed by this restriction?

      Why would i be embaressed? I didnt write the story or make the rules.

      Besides, it fits perfectly with Ashura and Indra's themes:

      • Indra (and his reincanates), becomes strong through natural talent and ability gains Rinnegan.
      • Ashura (and his reincarnates) need to work hard and learn from othersto become strong.

      1) okay, lava on questions:

      - Ten-tails has sage chakra or six paths sage chakra?

      - Jinchuriki Ten-tails gets senjutsu, or six paths senjutsu?

      - What exactly has absorbed Obito?

      - How did Obito create TSB? I mean, why Zetsu and not the personal chakra?

      - Why did Obito take over the chakra / chakra six paths sage when it has the chakra six paths that allows to confront Madara?

      2) The six paths chakra strengthens the user, but only the reincarnations of Hagoromo's sons get unique opportunities. Obito and Kakashi were users of the six paths chakra, but neither Rinnegan nor SPSM got it, they only got the amplification.

      But, could Madara, who had Hashirama's cells, get six paths senjutsu? He just had to learn Sage Modo, that's all. Doesn't he?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331
      ReweR 1331 removed this reply because:
      07:23, July 6, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) okay, lava on questions:

      - Ten-tails has sage chakra or six paths sage chakra?

      Hard to tell. We know it has natural energy and chakra but it doesnt seem thay it is properly mixed together as the Juubi

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Jinchuriki Ten-tails gets senjutsu, or six paths senjutsu?

      SPS

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - What exactly has absorbed Obito?

      Senjutsu. As per Madara's words. Maybe he meant SPS but his exact words were Sage Transformation

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - How did Obito create TSB? I mean, why Zetsu and not the personal chakra?

      He didnt create TSB. He made a staff from Zetsu's body because it is malleable and can change shape. Only Kaguya can create TSB

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Why did Obito take over the chakra / chakra six paths sage when it has the chakra six paths that allows to confront Madara?

      Because he is weaker than Madara. And was dying. And needed to save Naruto.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) The six paths chakra strengthens the user, but only the reincarnations of Hagoromo's sons get unique opportunities. Obito and Kakashi were users of the six paths chakra, but neither Rinnegan nor SPSM got it, they only got the amplification.

      But, could Madara, who had Hashirama's cells, get six paths senjutsu? He just had to learn Sage Modo, that's all. Doesn't he?

      Almost. Sage Mode and 6 Paths Sage Mode are different. Somehow. Because Madara didnt have SPS when he stole Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and Naruto has used SPSM and regular Sage Mode since the end of the war.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) okay, lava on questions:

      - Ten-tails has sage chakra or six paths sage chakra?

      Hard to tell. We know it has natural energy and chakra but it doesnt seem thay it is properly mixed together as the Juubi

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Jinchuriki Ten-tails gets senjutsu, or six paths senjutsu?

      SPS

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - What exactly has absorbed Obito?

      Senjutsu. As per Madara's words. Maybe he meant SPS but his exact words were Sage Transformation

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - How did Obito create TSB? I mean, why Zetsu and not the personal chakra?

      He didnt create TSB. He made a staff from Zetsu's body because it is malleable and can change shape. Only Kaguya can create TSB

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Why did Obito take over the chakra / chakra six paths sage when it has the chakra six paths that allows to confront Madara?

      Because he is weaker than Madara. And was dying. And needed to save Naruto.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) The six paths chakra strengthens the user, but only the reincarnations of Hagoromo's sons get unique opportunities. Obito and Kakashi were users of the six paths chakra, but neither Rinnegan nor SPSM got it, they only got the amplification.

      But, could Madara, who had Hashirama's cells, get six paths senjutsu? He just had to learn Sage Modo, that's all. Doesn't he?

      Almost. Sage Mode and 6 Paths Sage Mode are different. Somehow. Because Madara didnt have SPS when he stole Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and Naruto has used SPSM and regular Sage Mode since the end of the war.

      Naruto does not create TSB? Hagoromo? Hamura?

      But he formed a balloon, not a staff. From the balloon, he's already created a staff. The mechanics are the same as TSB, aren't they? He even had holes in his hand...

      Is it possible that only the reincarnation of Ashura can get SPSM? That is, Indra's reincarnation will not get the six paths senjutsu, even if she possesses Sage Modo and has the chakra six paths. But on the other hand, the presence of the chakra six paths associates the user with Hagoromo, but in fact the user has only half of his strength, somehow it is not so...

      So, the user list of the chakra six paths:

      - Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamura: That makes sense.

      - Ten-tails

      - Ashura: obviously, if Naruto and Sasuke got the power, then Ashura got it too. Also, Ashura's avatar showed something similar to TSB.

      - Madara: it's clear here, got the chakra six paths by mixing his and Hashirama's chakra.

      - Nagato: had Rinnegan Madara / Madara chakra

      - Obito: had Rinegan Madara, had Jinchuriki Ten-tails.

      - Naruto: got it from Hagoromo

      - Sasuke: got it from Hagoromo.

      - Kakashi: temporarily received from Obito

      - Hinata: temporarily received from Hamura

      As for Naruto and Sasuke, I wonder how they form the chakra six paths? Hagoromo couldn't have changed it. Is it possible that the same principle applies here as with Jinchuriki? Naruto and Sasuke had half the Hagoromo spirit, but after sealing Kaguya, the seals returned to the owner. The Chakra, which has taken root, will remain in the body forever. So Kishimoto talked about Gaara, this we see with Obito. It's probably the same here, that's how the chakra got rooted in their bodies.

        Loading editor
    • No, once you awaken Six Paths Chakra, it remains. Sasuke and Naruto each have their own Six Paths Chakra now thanks to Hagoromo helping them awaken SPS and Rinnegan. Same way Madara has his own Six Paths Chakra thanks to awakening the Rinnegan. Once you your body starts to produce it then it is yours, but if your body is not producing the chakra then it is a temp gift and will be expended eventually

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto does not create TSB? Hagoromo? Hamura?

      No. As explained in the manga, they have a finite amount of them and they just come with SPSM.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But he formed a balloon, not a staff. From the balloon, he's already created a staff. The mechanics are the same as TSB, aren't they? He even had holes in his hand...

      What point in time are you talking about?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Is it possible that only the reincarnation of Ashura can get SPSM?

      Theoretically no. Unlike the Rinnegan, SPSM is an ability. Abilities can be learned

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So, the user list of the chakra six paths:

      - Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamura: That makes sense.

      - Ten-tails

      Maybe the Juubi.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Ashura: obviously, if Naruto and Sasuke got the power, then Ashura got it too. Also, Ashura's avatar showed something similar to TSB.

      This is an assumpion. Equating things because they lool similar is poor logic.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Hinata: temporarily received from Hamura

      I think one of the novels says she stillhas it. I think. Im not gonna make a huge stink about this one beceause im not really sure.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      As for Naruto and Sasuke, I wonder how they form the chakra six paths? Hagoromo couldn't have changed it. Is it possible that the same principle applies here as with Jinchuriki? Naruto and Sasuke had half the Hagoromo spirit, but after sealing Kaguya, the seals returned to the owner. The Chakra, which has taken root, will remain in the body forever.

      Pretty much

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So Kishimoto talked about Gaara, this we see with Obito. It's probably the same here, that's how the chakra got rooted in their bodies.

      What did Kishi say about Gaara?

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto does not create TSB? Hagoromo? Hamura?

      No. As explained in the manga, they have a finite amount of them and they just come with SPSM.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But he formed a balloon, not a staff. From the balloon, he's already created a staff. The mechanics are the same as TSB, aren't they? He even had holes in his hand...

      What point in time are you talking about?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Is it possible that only the reincarnation of Ashura can get SPSM?

      Theoretically no. Unlike the Rinnegan, SPSM is an ability. Abilities can be learned

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So, the user list of the chakra six paths:

      - Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamura: That makes sense.

      - Ten-tails

      Maybe the Juubi.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Ashura: obviously, if Naruto and Sasuke got the power, then Ashura got it too. Also, Ashura's avatar showed something similar to TSB.

      This is an assumpion. Equating things because they lool similar is poor logic.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - Hinata: temporarily received from Hamura

      I think one of the novels says she stillhas it. I think. Im not gonna make a huge stink about this one beceause im not really sure.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      As for Naruto and Sasuke, I wonder how they form the chakra six paths? Hagoromo couldn't have changed it. Is it possible that the same principle applies here as with Jinchuriki? Naruto and Sasuke had half the Hagoromo spirit, but after sealing Kaguya, the seals returned to the owner. The Chakra, which has taken root, will remain in the body forever.

      Pretty much

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So Kishimoto talked about Gaara, this we see with Obito. It's probably the same here, that's how the chakra got rooted in their bodies.

      What did Kishi say about Gaara?

      So how do Naruto and Sasuke form chakra six paths? Hagoromo couldn't just give it, we need a source of that energy.

      Madara forms the chakra six paths because his body has the Indra chakra and the Ashura chakra. What of Naruto and Sasuke? How do they form?

      Still, we need to figure out exactly what extracted Obito from Madara.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So how do Naruto and Sasuke form chakra six paths? Hagoromo couldn't just give it, we need a source of that energy.

      Hagoromo gave it to them. And now they can produce it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara forms the chakra six paths because his body has the Indra chakra and the Ashura chakra. What of Naruto and Sasuke? How do they form?

      From Hagoromo.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Still, we need to figure out exactly what extracted Obito from Madara.

      Senjutsu. As stated by Madara. In the manga. Right after Obito took it

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So how do Naruto and Sasuke form chakra six paths? Hagoromo couldn't just give it, we need a source of that energy.

      Hagoromo gave it to them. And now they can produce it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara forms the chakra six paths because his body has the Indra chakra and the Ashura chakra. What of Naruto and Sasuke? How do they form?

      From Hagoromo.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Still, we need to figure out exactly what extracted Obito from Madara.

      Senjutsu. As stated by Madara. In the manga. Right after Obito took it

      How is that possible? Hagoromo gave them the chakra, but the chakra without the source will be spent and not restored.

      Six paths senjutsu is classified as senjutsu. You do realize that Ten-tails has six paths senjutsu, but not a simple senjutsu?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is that possible? Hagoromo gave them the chakra, but the chakra without the source will be spent and not restored.

      Tell that to Obito.

      Kinkaku and Ginkaku had a similar phenomenon with Kurama's chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Six paths senjutsu is classified as senjutsu. You do realize that Ten-tails has six paths senjutsu, but not a simple senjutsu?

      Since he didnt steal SPS then he just stole some natural energy. The Juubi has tons of that

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is that possible? Hagoromo gave them the chakra, but the chakra without the source will be spent and not restored.

      Tell that to Obito.

      Kinkaku and Ginkaku had a similar phenomenon with Kurama's chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Six paths senjutsu is classified as senjutsu. You do realize that Ten-tails has six paths senjutsu, but not a simple senjutsu?

      Since he didnt steal SPS then he just stole some natural energy. The Juubi has tons of that

      What about Obito? You mean his ability to use chakra six paths? As I wrote above, this is a unique case for all Jinchuriki. Masashi Kishimoto explained in Book Three that the Tailed Beast chakra is rooted in Jinchuriki, so they can use techniques that are inherent in Tailed Beast itself without even having a Tailed Beast. For example, that's how Gaara uses sand. Roushi got Lava Release from the Son Goku chakra and so on.

      The Kinkaku and Ginkaku brothers ate Kurama flesh. Obviously, they mutated, you can even see it in their moustaches.

      Madara speaks directly of sage chakra, not natural energy.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What about Obito? You mean his ability to use chakra six paths?

      I dont understand what you are asking about Obito

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      As I wrote above, this is a unique case for all Jinchuriki. Masashi Kishimoto explained in Book Three that the Tailed Beast chakra is rooted in Jinchuriki, so they can use techniques that are inherent in Tailed Beast itself without even having a Tailed Beast. For example, that's how Gaara uses sand. Roushi got Lava Release from the Son Goku chakra and so on.

      Do you mean the 3rd databook? I dont recall this being a thing. Roshi doesnt have lava release without Son

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The Kinkaku and Ginkaku brothers ate Kurama flesh. Obviously, they mutated, you can even see it in their moustaches.

      It still possible to integrate a foreign chakra into ones own.

      Hagoromo the literal ninja God could make that happen if Ginkaku and Kinkaku could do it by accident.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara speaks directly of sage chakra, not natural energy.

      He actually said Sage Transformation in the japanese version

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      What about Obito? You mean his ability to use chakra six paths?

      I dont understand what you are asking about Obito

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      As I wrote above, this is a unique case for all Jinchuriki. Masashi Kishimoto explained in Book Three that the Tailed Beast chakra is rooted in Jinchuriki, so they can use techniques that are inherent in Tailed Beast itself without even having a Tailed Beast. For example, that's how Gaara uses sand. Roushi got Lava Release from the Son Goku chakra and so on.

      Do you mean the 3rd databook? I dont recall this being a thing. Roshi doesnt have lava release without Son

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The Kinkaku and Ginkaku brothers ate Kurama flesh. Obviously, they mutated, you can even see it in their moustaches.

      It still possible to integrate a foreign chakra into ones own.

      Hagoromo the literal ninja God could make that happen if Ginkaku and Kinkaku could do it by accident.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Madara speaks directly of sage chakra, not natural energy.

      He actually said Sage Transformation in the japanese version

      So it says that because he used Sage Chakra Transform (Jinchuriki Ten-tails mode), he could steal some sage chakra.

      In the original: "一度仙人化しただけはある...", which roughly translates as: "...you once made the Transformation of the Sage..."

      You don't get it, Kinkaku and Ginkaku were literally mutating, it's fashionable to say that they're mini Kurama

      It is shown that only any material such as the flesh of Kurama or the chakra of God Tree forces the mutating and forming of a certain chakra.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So it says that because he used Sage Chakra Transform (Jinchuriki Ten-tails mode), he could steal some sage chakra.

      In the original: "一度仙人化しただけはある...", which roughly translates as: "...you once made the Transformation of the Sage..."

      Take it up with the translators here. The term "Senninka" which means Sage Transformation, which is Juugo's clan's kekkei genkai

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You don't get it, Kinkaku and Ginkaku were literally mutating, it's fashionable to say that they're mini Kurama

      No they are Ginkaku and Kinkaku. It doesnt matter if they "mutated". The series has shown us that it is possible to integrate foreign chakra into ones own system without implants.

      Who is to say the same concept of their mutation wasnt applied to Naruto/Sasuke?

      How many times do we have to be shown that 6 Paths chakra just works differently than regular chakra?

      How many times do we have to see Hagoromo break conventional rules and do the "impossible"?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It is shown that only any material such as the flesh of Kurama or the chakra of God Tree forces the mutating and forming of a certain chakra.

      Until Hagoromo came along and gave Naruto/Sasuke 6 Paths abilities and dojutsu... that they kept even after exhausting all of their chakra. You keep pointing at old facts/information/rules that simply dont apply to Hagoromo or 6 Paths characters over all. Otsutsuki play by a different set of rules and this been shown many times.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      So it says that because he used Sage Chakra Transform (Jinchuriki Ten-tails mode), he could steal some sage chakra.

      In the original: "一度仙人化しただけはある...", which roughly translates as: "...you once made the Transformation of the Sage..."

      Take it up with the translators here. The term "Senninka" which means Sage Transformation, which is Juugo's clan's kekkei genkai

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You don't get it, Kinkaku and Ginkaku were literally mutating, it's fashionable to say that they're mini Kurama

      No they are Ginkaku and Kinkaku. It doesnt matter if they "mutated". The series has shown us that it is possible to integrate foreign chakra into ones own system without implants.

      Who is to say the same concept of their mutation wasnt applied to Naruto/Sasuke?

      How many times do we have to be shown that 6 Paths chakra just works differently than regular chakra?

      How many times do we have to see Hagoromo break conventional rules and do the "impossible"?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It is shown that only any material such as the flesh of Kurama or the chakra of God Tree forces the mutating and forming of a certain chakra.

      Until Hagoromo came along and gave Naruto/Sasuke 6 Paths abilities and dojutsu... that they kept even after exhausting all of their chakra. You keep pointing at old facts/information/rules that simply dont apply to Hagoromo or 6 Paths characters over all. Otsutsuki play by a different set of rules and this been shown many times.

      I know what a transformation of a sage is. It was about the fact that Obito once made a transformation of a wise man, so he could now steal from Madara and sage chakra. Madara says directly that he stole the sage chakra from him.

      The description of one of Madara's techniques says "六道仙人化したマダラが使用 - used by Madara who transformed/transformed into the Sage of Six Paths". That is, his mode is called Sage of Six Paths Transformation, similar to Jugo and his Hermit Transformation.

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The description of one of Madara's techniques says "六道仙人化したマダラが使用 - used by Madara who transformed/transformed into the Sage of Six Paths". That is, his mode is called Sage of Six Paths Transformation, similar to Jugo and his Hermit Transformation.

      What technique?

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The description of one of Madara's techniques says "六道仙人化したマダラが使用 - used by Madara who transformed/transformed into the Sage of Six Paths". That is, his mode is called Sage of Six Paths Transformation, similar to Jugo and his Hermit Transformation.

      What technique?

      Sage Art: Shadow Style Thunder Blast

        Loading editor
    • That is not relevent or informative of Sage Transformation or anything we are talking about...

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote: That is not relevent or informative of Sage Transformation or anything we are talking about...

      I think it does. Madara meant that Obito was Sage of Six Paths, so he could now pull the chakra sage ten-tails.

      Just like Gaara pulled Shukaku out of Obito.

      And yes, don't ignore what Madara said about stealing sage chakra, not natural energy.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I think it does. Madara meant that Obito was Sage of Six Paths, so he could now pull the chakra sage ten-tails.

      Yet he had none of the signs of being a Sage of 6 Paths. Just because it used the word "transformed" doesnt necessarily mean it is referring to the specific ability Sage Transformation. Sage Transformation doesnt even specifically refer to 6 Paths.

      Just because it used the word "transformed" doesnt necessarily mean it is referring to the specific ability Sage Transformation.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Just like Gaara pulled Shukaku out of Obito.

      Or like how Madara stole Hashirama's Sage Mode...

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And yes, don't ignore what Madara said about stealing sage chakra, not natural energy.

      I did t really ignore it so much as was distarcted by the random inclusion of the random databook entry. He didnt say anything about Sage Chakra or Sage Mode. Sage Transformation. The specific ability

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I think it does. Madara meant that Obito was Sage of Six Paths, so he could now pull the chakra sage ten-tails.

      Yet he had none of the signs of being a Sage of 6 Paths. Just because it used the word "transformed" doesnt necessarily mean it is referring to the specific ability Sage Transformation. Sage Transformation doesnt even specifically refer to 6 Paths.

      Just because it used the word "transformed" doesnt necessarily mean it is referring to the specific ability Sage Transformation.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Just like Gaara pulled Shukaku out of Obito.

      Or like how Madara stole Hashirama's Sage Mode...

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And yes, don't ignore what Madara said about stealing sage chakra, not natural energy.

      I did t really ignore it so much as was distarcted by the random inclusion of the random databook entry. He didnt say anything about Sage Chakra or Sage Mode. Sage Transformation. The specific ability

      It's ridiculous, actually... I just reread this moment and it doesn't really talk about the chakra sage. " Sorry

      Madara could only get Sage Modo Hashirama because he had his cells, you mean that?

      Okay, that's not what I'm interested in right now. According to your version, SPSM Naruto = chakra six paths + Sage Modo? In your own version, Naruto and Sasuke have chakra six paths by default.

      If Naruto chakra = chakra six paths, how can Naruto use a simple Sage Modo?

      Also, if Naruto already has the right chakra for SPSM, why does it always activate the Kurama chakra?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:


      Madara could only get Sage Modo Hashirama because he had his cells, you mean that?

      Madara didnt know how to sense/gather natural energy. Thats why he stole it from Hashirama.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, that's not what I'm interested in right now. According to your version, SPSM Naruto = chakra six paths + Sage Modo? In your own version, Naruto and Sasuke have chakra six paths by default.

      If Naruto chakra = chakra six paths, how can Naruto use a simple Sage Modo?

      Because SPSM and Sage Mode are 2 different abilities.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Also, if Naruto already has the right chakra for SPSM, why does it always activate the Kurama chakra?

      So he can have the cloak and use Kurama's abilities

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:


      Madara could only get Sage Modo Hashirama because he had his cells, you mean that?

      Madara didnt know how to sense/gather natural energy. Thats why he stole it from Hashirama.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, that's not what I'm interested in right now. According to your version, SPSM Naruto = chakra six paths + Sage Modo? In your own version, Naruto and Sasuke have chakra six paths by default.

      If Naruto chakra = chakra six paths, how can Naruto use a simple Sage Modo?

      Because SPSM and Sage Mode are 2 different abilities.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Also, if Naruto already has the right chakra for SPSM, why does it always activate the Kurama chakra?

      So he can have the cloak and use Kurama's abilities

      No, the question is different. Madara entered Sage Modo Hashirama because:

      - had his cells and absorbed his chakra sage?

      - absorbed his chakra sage?

      And how is SPSM different from SM? Only the chakra. The method of absorbing natural energy is the same, hence Naruto has both SM and SPSM in the frog's eyes.

      Chakra Naruto ≠ chakra six paths. Naruto can simply form it and mix it with nature's energy, hence the SPSM.

      You can also think of Chidori Sasuke, which used the chakra six paths to become black. In the valley of completion, Sasuke used not only Chidori but also various Lighting Release techniques, but they are not painted black. This also suggests that chakra Sasuke ≠ chakra six paths

      He used the Kurama chakra before he activated the cape. It felt like the Kurama chakra was mandatory for SPSM activation.

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No, the question is different. Madara entered Sage Modo Hashirama because:

      - had his cells and absorbed his chakra sage?

      - absorbed his chakra sage?

      He still stole it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And how is SPSM different from SM? Only the chakra.

      You just answered your own question

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The method of absorbing natural energy is the same, hence Naruto has both SM and SPSM in the frog's eyes.

      Just because the method of gathering natural energy is the same doesnt make the the same. Snake Sages, Toad Sages, Hashirama, all have different abilities and visual cues.

      The the horizontal eyes are not exclusive to Toad Senjutsu. SPSM eyes having them doesnt mean the abilities are related

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chakra Naruto ≠ chakra six paths. Naruto can simply form it and mix it with nature's energy, hence the SPSM.

      SPSM is a different kind of senjutsu, just like wind release: Rasengan and regular Rasengan. He choose which version of Sage Mode to use

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You can also think of Chidori Sasuke, which used the chakra six paths to become black. In the valley of completion, Sasuke used not only Chidori but also various Lighting Release techniques, but they are not painted black. This also suggests that chakra Sasuke ≠ chakra six paths

      Sasuke was able to cut Madara in half with a regular colored Chidori Eso so clearly it isnt regular chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      He used the Kurama chakra before he activated the cape. It felt like the Kurama chakra was mandatory for SPSM activation.

      No he did not and no it was not.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No, the question is different. Madara entered Sage Modo Hashirama because:

      - had his cells and absorbed his chakra sage?

      - absorbed his chakra sage?

      He still stole it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And how is SPSM different from SM? Only the chakra.

      You just answered your own question

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The method of absorbing natural energy is the same, hence Naruto has both SM and SPSM in the frog's eyes.

      Just because the method of gathering natural energy is the same doesnt make the the same. Snake Sages, Toad Sages, Hashirama, all have different abilities and visual cues.

      The the horizontal eyes are not exclusive to Toad Senjutsu. SPSM eyes having them doesnt mean the abilities are related

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Chakra Naruto ≠ chakra six paths. Naruto can simply form it and mix it with nature's energy, hence the SPSM.

      SPSM is a different kind of senjutsu, just like wind release: Rasengan and regular Rasengan. He choose which version of Sage Mode to use

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You can also think of Chidori Sasuke, which used the chakra six paths to become black. In the valley of completion, Sasuke used not only Chidori but also various Lighting Release techniques, but they are not painted black. This also suggests that chakra Sasuke ≠ chakra six paths

      Sasuke was able to cut Madara in half with a regular colored Chidori Eso so clearly it isnt regular chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      He used the Kurama chakra before he activated the cape. It felt like the Kurama chakra was mandatory for SPSM activation.

      No he did not and no it was not.

      You don't understand again, the question is, did Madara activate SM Hashirama because he had his cells and his chakra sage, or do Hashirama's cells play no role?

      Yes, SM and SPSM are only different from the chakra, that's understandable. But you write that after meeting with Hagoromo, the Naruto chakra turned into a chakra of six paths, so he should always use SPSM.

      Naruto has a horizontal pupil in the SPSM because it absorbs natural energy using the frog method. No one has taught him to absorb natural energy in another way.

      Your example with Rasengan and Wind Release: Rasengan does not fit into this. Rasengan is a simple chakra and Wind Rasengan is a chakra after nature transformation process. This scheme is only suitable if Naruto can create the chakra six paths, and does not have it by default.

      No, it is not a simple chidori. First of all, Jinchuriki Ten-tails is invulnerable to simple ninjutsu, + do you really think Sasuke attacked with a simple chidori when he told Naruto to use the six paths chakra before? Secondly, his chidori is painted in a black outline. Please compare this version of chidori with previous and subsequent, you will find the difference.

      The horizontal pupil means that Naruto uses the frog method to absorb natural energy. The vertical pupil means that Naruto uses the Nine-Tails chakra.

      UPD: please come into your next discussion

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You don't understand again, the question is, did Madara activate SM Hashirama because he had his cells and his chakra sage, or do Hashirama's cells play no role?

      Pretty sure the cells play a role since the Hashi-boob got the SM markings and not Madara's own face.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, SM and SPSM are only different from the chakra, that's understandable. But you write that after meeting with Hagoromo, the Naruto chakra turned into a chakra of six paths, so he should always use SPSM.

      Not necessarily. Having a better version of an ability doesnt mean always using that ability. After getting KCM, Naruto used basic Rasengan many times

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto has a horizontal pupil in the SPSM because it absorbs natural energy using the frog method. No one has taught him to absorb natural energy in another way.

      Hagormo instilled him with that knowledge. By giving him SPSM Naruto was able to understand all things.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Your example with Rasengan and Wind Release: Rasengan does not fit into this. Rasengan is a simple chakra and Wind Rasengan is a chakra after nature transformation process. This scheme is only suitable if Naruto can create the chakra six paths, and does not have it by default.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No, it is not a simple chidori. First of all, Jinchuriki Ten-tails is invulnerable to simple ninjutsu, + do you really think Sasuke attacked with a simple chidori when he told Naruto to use the six paths chakra before?

      No. That was the point i was trying to make. See my next response

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Secondly, his chidori is painted in a black outline. Please compare this version of chidori with previous and subsequent, you will find the difference.

      6 Paths doesnt necessarily make Chidori black. Sasuke's regular colored Chidori Eso cut Madara in half.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The horizontal pupil means that Naruto uses the frog method to absorb natural energy. The vertical pupil means that Naruto uses the Nine-Tails chakra.

      SPSM has its own eyes that look similar to Frog SM and Kurama chakra eyes, but it is yellow while no cloak is activated.

      Im pretty sure Kurama Chakra-Sage Mode eyes are red with no cloak.

      Frog Sage mode is also signified by the orange marks around the eyes. So SPSM has nothing to do with Frog Sage mode even if the eyes are similar

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You don't understand again, the question is, did Madara activate SM Hashirama because he had his cells and his chakra sage, or do Hashirama's cells play no role?

      Pretty sure the cells play a role since the Hashi-boob got the SM markings and not Madara's own face.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, SM and SPSM are only different from the chakra, that's understandable. But you write that after meeting with Hagoromo, the Naruto chakra turned into a chakra of six paths, so he should always use SPSM.

      Not necessarily. Having a better version of an ability doesnt mean always using that ability. After getting KCM, Naruto used basic Rasengan many times

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto has a horizontal pupil in the SPSM because it absorbs natural energy using the frog method. No one has taught him to absorb natural energy in another way.

      Hagormo instilled him with that knowledge. By giving him SPSM Naruto was able to understand all things.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Your example with Rasengan and Wind Release: Rasengan does not fit into this. Rasengan is a simple chakra and Wind Rasengan is a chakra after nature transformation process. This scheme is only suitable if Naruto can create the chakra six paths, and does not have it by default.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No, it is not a simple chidori. First of all, Jinchuriki Ten-tails is invulnerable to simple ninjutsu, + do you really think Sasuke attacked with a simple chidori when he told Naruto to use the six paths chakra before?

      No. That was the point i was trying to make. See my next response

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Secondly, his chidori is painted in a black outline. Please compare this version of chidori with previous and subsequent, you will find the difference.

      6 Paths doesnt necessarily make Chidori black. Sasuke's regular colored Chidori Eso cut Madara in half.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The horizontal pupil means that Naruto uses the frog method to absorb natural energy. The vertical pupil means that Naruto uses the Nine-Tails chakra.

      SPSM has its own eyes that look similar to Frog SM and Kurama chakra eyes, but it is yellow while no cloak is activated.

      Im pretty sure Kurama Chakra-Sage Mode eyes are red with no cloak.

      Frog Sage mode is also signified by the orange marks around the eyes. So SPSM has nothing to do with Frog Sage mode even if the eyes are similar

      Yes, because KCM Naruto has his chakra. You say Naruto's chakra has become a chakra six paths.

      Where are the pupils at Hagoromo, Hamura, Jinchuriki Ten-tails, Kaguya? It's not the eye that changes, it's the pupil as shown with Rinegan Pain, so Rinegan is not a hindrance.

      Naruto's eyes remained yellow even when using a cape.

      Okay, I'll ask you. Where does it say that Naruto and Saske use full chakra six paths? In the manga, they get half of it, on the covers of the chapters they sit at the edges of Hagoromo, symbolizing half his chakra. But you say they got the whole chakra six paths. Where does it say that?

      If Sasuke got the whole chakra six paths like Madara, why does Sasuke only have 1 Rinnegan?

      If Naruto got the whole chakra of six paths like Madara, why doesn't Naruto have Rinnegan? Zetsu watched both reincarnations, hoping that one of them would get Rinnegan. So both reincarnations have equal conditions.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, because KCM Naruto has his chakra. You say Naruto's chakra has become a chakra six paths.

      What?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Where are the pupils at Hagoromo, Hamura, Jinchuriki Ten-tails, Kaguya?

      • Obito had Rinnegan and Sharingan active the whole time and was using 6 Paths Senjutsu not SPSM
      • Madara had Rinnegan active the whole time and was using 6 Paths Senjutsu not SPSM
      • Hagoromo had Rinnegan the whole time
      • Kaguya had none of the physical marks of 6 Paths Senjutsu or of Tailed Beast chakra. She was likely using 6 Paths Senjutsu and not SPSM

      The Otsutsuki in general play by different rules. The have stuff like Sharingan and Rinnegan and Byakugan contained in one eye and can activate them over eachother

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's not the eye that changes, it's the pupil as shown with Rinegan Pain, so Rinegan is not a hindrance.

      ..... what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto's eyes remained yellow even when using a cape.

      In chapter 444 shows us that if Naruto isnt using a Chakra cloak, using Kurama's chakra while in Sage Mode will give him red eyes with cross pupils and more whisker lines

      While using KCM, Naruto only gets slit eyes when using Bijuu Mode.

      In chapter 672, Naruto showed up with no cloak and Yellow eyes with cross-pupils and no additional whisker lines. This indicates he was not using Kurama's chakra at the time.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, I'll ask you. Where does it say that Naruto and Saske use full chakra six paths? In the manga, they get half of it, on the covers of the chapters they sit at the edges of Hagoromo, symbolizing half his chakra. But you say they got the whole chakra six paths. Where does it say that?

      You either have 6 Paths chakra or you dont. There is no "half-6 Paths chakra".

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      If Sasuke got the whole chakra six paths like Madara, why does Sasuke only have 1 Rinnegan?

      Because Hagoromo only gave him the one. A special one that allows him to use his Sharingan and EMS along with it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      If Naruto got the whole chakra of six paths like Madara, why doesn't Naruto have Rinnegan?

      ... because he doesnt have the special eyes.

      This is like asking why Naruto has full Bijuu chakra when Kurama was split in half...

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Zetsu watched both reincarnations, hoping that one of them would get Rinnegan. So both reincarnations have equal conditions.

      There is no proof of the circumstances of how or why they failed. They may have failed to implant DNA and for Ashura's reincarnations, they may have failed because they didnt take Indra reincarnations eyes.

      All we know for sure right now is that only the eyes of Indra's reincarnates have become Rinnegan.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, because KCM Naruto has his chakra. You say Naruto's chakra has become a chakra six paths.

      What?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Where are the pupils at Hagoromo, Hamura, Jinchuriki Ten-tails, Kaguya?

      • Obito had Rinnegan and Sharingan active the whole time and was using 6 Paths Senjutsu not SPSM
      • Madara had Rinnegan active the whole time and was using 6 Paths Senjutsu not SPSM
      • Hagoromo had Rinnegan the whole time
      • Kaguya had none of the physical marks of 6 Paths Senjutsu or of Tailed Beast chakra. She was likely using 6 Paths Senjutsu and not SPSM

      The Otsutsuki in general play by different rules. The have stuff like Sharingan and Rinnegan and Byakugan contained in one eye and can activate them over eachother

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's not the eye that changes, it's the pupil as shown with Rinegan Pain, so Rinegan is not a hindrance.

      ..... what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Naruto's eyes remained yellow even when using a cape.

      In chapter 444 shows us that if Naruto isnt using a Chakra cloak, using Kurama's chakra while in Sage Mode will give him red eyes with cross pupils and more whisker lines

      While using KCM, Naruto only gets slit eyes when using Bijuu Mode.

      In chapter 672, Naruto showed up with no cloak and Yellow eyes with cross-pupils and no additional whisker lines. This indicates he was not using Kurama's chakra at the time.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, I'll ask you. Where does it say that Naruto and Saske use full chakra six paths? In the manga, they get half of it, on the covers of the chapters they sit at the edges of Hagoromo, symbolizing half his chakra. But you say they got the whole chakra six paths. Where does it say that?

      You either have 6 Paths chakra or you dont. There is no "half-6 Paths chakra".

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      If Sasuke got the whole chakra six paths like Madara, why does Sasuke only have 1 Rinnegan?

      Because Hagoromo only gave him the one. A special one that allows him to use his Sharingan and EMS along with it.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      If Naruto got the whole chakra of six paths like Madara, why doesn't Naruto have Rinnegan?

      ... because he doesnt have the special eyes.

      This is like asking why Naruto has full Bijuu chakra when Kurama was split in half...

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Zetsu watched both reincarnations, hoping that one of them would get Rinnegan. So both reincarnations have equal conditions.

      There is no proof of the circumstances of how or why they failed. They may have failed to implant DNA and for Ashura's reincarnations, they may have failed because they didnt take Indra reincarnations eyes.

      All we know for sure right now is that only the eyes of Indra's reincarnates have become Rinnegan.

      How is 6 Paths Senjutsu different from SPSM? Madara named SPSM Naruto as 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      No "half-breeds"? What about 6 Paths Yin Power and 6 Paths Yang Power?

      Can Hagoromo himself use a Rinnegan like that?

      You mean the simple eyes of Indra, or Sharingan?

      Okay, let's say so, then other questions:

      1) Madara received the chakra 6 because he had the chakras of Indra and Ashura, which gave him Rinnegan. Madara got "body" Hagoromo? Can he use 6 Paths Senjutsu?

      2) If Indra's reincarnation gets Rinnegan from mixing with Ashura's chakra, what will the reincarnation of Ashura get if he gets Indra's chakra? It looks like this in my head:

      - reincarnation of Ashura + Indra chakra = 6 Paths chakra, with the option to use 6 Paths Senjutsu and SPSM.

      But what happens if he gets Indra's eyes / his reincarnation?

      - reincarnation of Ashura + Indra eyes = chakra 6 Paths, with the option to use 6 Paths Senjutsu and SPSM. But will he get Rinnegan?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is 6 Paths Senjutsu different from SPSM? Madara named SPSM Naruto as 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      The same way that Juugo's Sage Tranformation is different from Sage Mode. They are both Senjutsu, but they are not both Sage Mode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No "half-breeds"? What about 6 Paths Yin Power and 6 Paths Yang Power?

      Those are SEALS. Not power split in half by the release or chakra nature or whatever.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can Hagoromo himself use a Rinnegan like that?

      Like what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You mean the simple eyes of Indra, or Sharingan?

      Can you clarify this question please

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, let's say so, then other questions:

      1) Madara received the chakra 6 because he had the chakras of Indra and Ashura, which gave him Rinnegan. Madara got "body" Hagoromo? Can he use 6 Paths Senjutsu?

      "Body" of Hagormo is irrelevant. If Madara has the skills to learn 6 Paths Senjutsu then yes he can and a body/chakra reserves that can handle natutal Energy then yes.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) If Indra's reincarnation gets Rinnegan from mixing with Ashura's chakra, what will the reincarnation of Ashura get if he gets Indra's chakra? It looks like this in my head:

      6 Paths amps

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - reincarnation of Ashura + Indra chakra = 6 Paths chakra, with the option to use 6 Paths Senjutsu and SPSM.

      They have to learn 6 Paths Senjutsu/SPSM. They dont just have it. As with Ashura's theme, they dont have "natural" power ups.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But what happens if he gets Indra's eyes / his reincarnation?

      They could awaken the Rinnegan

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is 6 Paths Senjutsu different from SPSM? Madara named SPSM Naruto as 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      The same way that Juugo's Sage Tranformation is different from Sage Mode. They are both Senjutsu, but they are not both Sage Mode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      No "half-breeds"? What about 6 Paths Yin Power and 6 Paths Yang Power?

      Those are SEALS. Not power split in half by the release or chakra nature or whatever.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can Hagoromo himself use a Rinnegan like that?

      Like what?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      You mean the simple eyes of Indra, or Sharingan?

      Can you clarify this question please

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, let's say so, then other questions:

      1) Madara received the chakra 6 because he had the chakras of Indra and Ashura, which gave him Rinnegan. Madara got "body" Hagoromo? Can he use 6 Paths Senjutsu?

      "Body" of Hagormo is irrelevant. If Madara has the skills to learn 6 Paths Senjutsu then yes he can and a body/chakra reserves that can handle natutal Energy then yes.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) If Indra's reincarnation gets Rinnegan from mixing with Ashura's chakra, what will the reincarnation of Ashura get if he gets Indra's chakra? It looks like this in my head:

      6 Paths amps

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      - reincarnation of Ashura + Indra chakra = 6 Paths chakra, with the option to use 6 Paths Senjutsu and SPSM.

      They have to learn 6 Paths Senjutsu/SPSM. They dont just have it. As with Ashura's theme, they dont have "natural" power ups.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      But what happens if he gets Indra's eyes / his reincarnation?

      They could awaken the Rinnegan

      Okay, so what's the difference? When Naruto was training at Sage Modo, Fukasaku said that Sage Modo is the result of mixing spiritual, physical and natural energies. That is, getting the chakra sage injects the user into SM. Why is the Jugo mode so fundamentally different?

      Can Hagoromo use a Rinnegan like Sasuke? And why can't Madara activate Sharingan over Rinnegan?

      Here (... because he doesnt have the special eyes) you mean Indra's simple eyes / his reincarnation, or Sharingan?

      Okay, I think I'm starting to understand your logic. The reincarnations of Indra when the chakra 6 Paths is reached get Rinnegan, and the reincarnations of Ashura when the chakra 6 Paths is reached have nothing. They need to learn.

      It's a scheme, it turns out:

      - Indra: chakra Indra + chakra Ashura = chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan + ability to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM, what to learn

      - Ashura: chakra Ashura + chakra Indra = chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan (?) + the ability to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM, what to learn.

      - Indra: chakra Indra + chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan. Does this Indra have the opportunity to study 6 Paths Senjutsu?

      - Ashura: chakra Ashura + chakra 6 Paths = Opportunity to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM to learn what to learn. Rinnegan will not get then, right?

        Loading editor
    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, so what's the difference? When Naruto was training at Sage Modo, Fukasaku said that Sage Modo is the result of mixing spiritual, physical and natural energies. That is, getting the chakra sage injects the user into SM. Why is the Jugo mode so fundamentally different?

      Im not about to list off all the stuff that makes Sage Transformation amd Sage Mode different. There are enough resources for you to find that out on your own

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can Hagoromo use a Rinnegan like Sasuke?

      What do you mean like Sasuke?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And why can't Madara activate Sharingan over Rinnegan?

      Because he cant. There really isnt another answer for that.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Here (... because he doesnt have the special eyes) you mean Indra's simple eyes / his reincarnation, or Sharingan?

      I think theu would have to be Sharingan that contain Indra's chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, I think I'm starting to understand your logic. The reincarnations of Indra when the chakra 6 Paths is reached get Rinnegan, and the reincarnations of Ashura when the chakra 6 Paths is reached have nothing. They need to learn.

      Its not that they get nothing. They would get all the usual strength amps they already ha e strong bodies so they would have REALLY strong bodies.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's a scheme, it turns out:

      - Indra: chakra Indra + chakra Ashura = chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan + ability to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM, what to learn

      - Ashura: chakra Ashura + chakra Indra = chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan (?) + the ability to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM, what to learn.

      - Indra: chakra Indra + chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan. Does this Indra have the opportunity to study 6 Paths Senjutsu?

      - Ashura: chakra Ashura + chakra 6 Paths = Opportunity to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM to learn what to learn. Rinnegan will not get then, right?

      Ashura and his reincarnations wont get Rinnegan

      Indra and his reincarnations will get Rinnegan

      They can both learn 6 Paths Senjutsu/SPSM, but Ashura's reincarnates will probably better at it because of their strong bodies

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, so what's the difference? When Naruto was training at Sage Modo, Fukasaku said that Sage Modo is the result of mixing spiritual, physical and natural energies. That is, getting the chakra sage injects the user into SM. Why is the Jugo mode so fundamentally different?

      Im not about to list off all the stuff that makes Sage Transformation amd Sage Mode different. There are enough resources for you to find that out on your own

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can Hagoromo use a Rinnegan like Sasuke?

      What do you mean like Sasuke?

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And why can't Madara activate Sharingan over Rinnegan?

      Because he cant. There really isnt another answer for that.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Here (... because he doesnt have the special eyes) you mean Indra's simple eyes / his reincarnation, or Sharingan?

      I think theu would have to be Sharingan that contain Indra's chakra.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, I think I'm starting to understand your logic. The reincarnations of Indra when the chakra 6 Paths is reached get Rinnegan, and the reincarnations of Ashura when the chakra 6 Paths is reached have nothing. They need to learn.

      Its not that they get nothing. They would get all the usual strength amps they already ha e strong bodies so they would have REALLY strong bodies.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      It's a scheme, it turns out:

      - Indra: chakra Indra + chakra Ashura = chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan + ability to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM, what to learn

      - Ashura: chakra Ashura + chakra Indra = chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan (?) + the ability to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM, what to learn.

      - Indra: chakra Indra + chakra 6 Paths = Rinnegan. Does this Indra have the opportunity to study 6 Paths Senjutsu?

      - Ashura: chakra Ashura + chakra 6 Paths = Opportunity to use 6 Paths Senjutsu / SPSM to learn what to learn. Rinnegan will not get then, right?

      Ashura and his reincarnations wont get Rinnegan

      Indra and his reincarnations will get Rinnegan

      They can both learn 6 Paths Senjutsu/SPSM, but Ashura's reincarnates will probably better at it because of their strong bodies

      The manga doesn't indicate any differences. And both are named senjutsu, that's all it says in a manga. If you know the difference, please explain. Orochimaru uses senjutsu but doesn't own SM, which is weird and doesn't fit the mechanics described by Fukasaku.

      How does Naruto get six paths senjutsu? And how does that differ from SPSM? I don't understand why just having the chakra 6 paths and the chakra sage at the reincarnation of Ashura doesn't bring it to 6 paths senjutsu?

      Can Hagoromo activate Sharingan with Rinnegan, like Sasuke does?

      Yes, yes, that's what I meant. It's just that Indra's reincarnations are immediately given to Rinnegan when the Ashura's reincarnations need to get used to the 6 paths senjutsu

      Um, some kind of imbalance is working out...

      By the way, I've been meaning to ask. Why isn't TSB the jutsu that cancels / erases ninjutsu for you?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote: By the way, I've been meaning to ask. Why isn't TSB the jutsu that cancels / erases ninjutsu for you?

      What do you mean "For him"?

      It just isn't the jutsu. It's already shown that TSBs are separate from the canceling jutsu.

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    • Squinty97 wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote: By the way, I've been meaning to ask. Why isn't TSB the jutsu that cancels / erases ninjutsu for you?

      What do you mean "For him"?

      It just isn't the jutsu. It's already shown that TSBs are separate from the canceling jutsu.

      Where's that shown?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The manga doesn't indicate any differences. And both are named senjutsu, that's all it says in a manga. If you know the difference, please explain.

      Are you really sitting here and saying what Jugo can do and what Naruto can do are the same thing?

      The manga calls Juugo's ability Sage Transformation. His power are explaine din the manga and databooks. Read the wiki pages and check the citations and double check the chapters.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Orochimaru uses senjutsu but doesn't own SM, which is weird and doesn't fit the mechanics described by Fukasaku.

      Because using Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode

      None of the Sage animals have Sage Mode but use Senjutsu

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How does Naruto get six paths senjutsu? And how does that differ from SPSM?

      6 Paths Sage Mode is a form 6 Paths Senjustu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't understand why just having the chakra 6 paths and the chakra sage at the reincarnation of Ashura doesn't bring it to 6 paths senjutsu?

      Because that is an ability. That needs to be learned.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can Hagoromo activate Sharingan with Rinnegan, like Sasuke does?

      Hagoromo doesnt have Sharingan sooooo no.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, yes, that's what I meant. It's just that Indra's reincarnations are immediately given to Rinnegan when the Ashura's reincarnations need to get used to the 6 paths senjutsu

      Rinnegan doesnt manifest for decades

      Ashura reincarnates nees to learn the ability 6 Paths Senjutsu. They dont have the ability to use it just because of 6 Paths Chakra

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      By the way, I've been meaning to ask. Why isn't TSB the jutsu that cancels / erases ninjutsu for you?

      That is one of the TSB abilities

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The manga doesn't indicate any differences. And both are named senjutsu, that's all it says in a manga. If you know the difference, please explain.

      Are you really sitting here and saying what Jugo can do and what Naruto can do are the same thing?

      The manga calls Juugo's ability Sage Transformation. His power are explaine din the manga and databooks. Read the wiki pages and check the citations and double check the chapters.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Orochimaru uses senjutsu but doesn't own SM, which is weird and doesn't fit the mechanics described by Fukasaku.

      Because using Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode

      None of the Sage animals have Sage Mode but use Senjutsu

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How does Naruto get six paths senjutsu? And how does that differ from SPSM?

      6 Paths Sage Mode is a form 6 Paths Senjustu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      I don't understand why just having the chakra 6 paths and the chakra sage at the reincarnation of Ashura doesn't bring it to 6 paths senjutsu?

      Because that is an ability. That needs to be learned.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Can Hagoromo activate Sharingan with Rinnegan, like Sasuke does?

      Hagoromo doesnt have Sharingan sooooo no.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Yes, yes, that's what I meant. It's just that Indra's reincarnations are immediately given to Rinnegan when the Ashura's reincarnations need to get used to the 6 paths senjutsu

      Rinnegan doesnt manifest for decades

      Ashura reincarnates nees to learn the ability 6 Paths Senjutsu. They dont have the ability to use it just because of 6 Paths Chakra

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      By the way, I've been meaning to ask. Why isn't TSB the jutsu that cancels / erases ninjutsu for you?

      That is one of the TSB abilities

      1) wiki says that sage transformation is a bloodline limit. But neither the manga nor the data book says that the Jugo technique is a bloodline limit.

      2) wiki says that sage transformation is an option for achieving sage mode. That is, in essence, the user gets the sage modo. The only difference from entering Naruto in sage mode is that the user sage transformation does not absorb any natural energy, it absorbs itself into the user's body.

      note: here I agree. And yes, the difference I understand is the difference in the method of collecting natural energy. Naruto, Minato and Hashirama are absorbed by themselves, while Jugo and Kabuto simply activate sage transformation. Okay, that makes sense. What's the difference with 6 paths senjutsu?

      3) wiki says that Ashura had 6 paths senjutsu.

      4) wiki says that Naruto can only use 6 paths senjutsu because he has SPSM.

      In short, the wiki mostly says things that are opposite to you. Shall I keep reading the wiki, or will you start saying your version normally?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) wiki says that sage transformation is a bloodline limit. But neither the manga nor the data book says that the Jugo technique is a bloodline limit.

      This correct. That is why i said to double check the manga/databooks. Juugo's clan's Kekkei Genkai is to passively absorb nature energy.

      Sage Transformation is an ability theu can use because of that KKG, not the KKG itself

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) wiki says that sage transformation is an option for achieving sage mode. That is, in essence, the user gets the sage modo. The only difference from entering Naruto in sage mode is that the user sage transformation does not absorb any natural energy, it absorbs itself into the user's body.

      Anyone who uses Senjutsu is a Sage, regardless if they enter Sage Mode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      note: here I agree. And yes, the difference I understand is the difference in the method of collecting natural energy. Naruto, Minato and Hashirama are absorbed by themselves, while Jugo and Kabuto simply activate sage transformation.

      Its not about how it is gathered necessarily. Sage Transformation literally transforms the body.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, that makes sense. What's the difference with 6 paths senjutsu?

      6 Paths Senjutsu is a special kind of Senjutsu that involves 6 Paths Chakra

      ReweR 1331 wrote:


      3) wiki says that Ashura had 6 paths senjutsu.

      That is because i think the anime says he got it, but that was filler, and therefore non-canon. None of his abilities were explained in the manga

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) wiki says that Naruto can only use 6 paths senjutsu because he has SPSM.

      Yes, because Six Paths Sage Mode is a form of 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In short, the wiki mostly says things that are opposite to you. Shall I keep reading the wiki, or will you start saying your version normally?

      I think you should look to the manga/databooks for answers, not me or the wiki. I present the information the best i can. I dont believe the wiki is always accurate, since even the statement about Sage Transformation being a way to enter Sage Mode is not explained anywhere in the series. Debating the mods here is almost pointless, more often then not they are to stubborn to consider the fallacies/inconsistancies in their POV and/or methodology

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Squinty97 wrote:

      What do you mean "For him"?

      It just isn't the jutsu. It's already shown that TSBs are separate from the canceling jutsu.

      Where's that shown?

      It's shown when Obito obliterated half of Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen with TSBs but they regenerated. Then when Obito regained his mind, he was able to apply the canceling effects to the TSBs, which stopped Minato's arm from regenerating

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) wiki says that sage transformation is a bloodline limit. But neither the manga nor the data book says that the Jugo technique is a bloodline limit.

      This correct. That is why i said to double check the manga/databooks. Juugo's clan's Kekkei Genkai is to passively absorb nature energy.

      Sage Transformation is an ability theu can use because of that KKG, not the KKG itself

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) wiki says that sage transformation is an option for achieving sage mode. That is, in essence, the user gets the sage modo. The only difference from entering Naruto in sage mode is that the user sage transformation does not absorb any natural energy, it absorbs itself into the user's body.

      Anyone who uses Senjutsu is a Sage, regardless if they enter Sage Mode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      note: here I agree. And yes, the difference I understand is the difference in the method of collecting natural energy. Naruto, Minato and Hashirama are absorbed by themselves, while Jugo and Kabuto simply activate sage transformation.

      Its not about how it is gathered necessarily. Sage Transformation literally transforms the body.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, that makes sense. What's the difference with 6 paths senjutsu?

      6 Paths Senjutsu is a special kind of Senjutsu that involves 6 Paths Chakra

      ReweR 1331 wrote:


      3) wiki says that Ashura had 6 paths senjutsu.

      That is because i think the anime says he got it, but that was filler, and therefore non-canon. None of his abilities were explained in the manga

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      4) wiki says that Naruto can only use 6 paths senjutsu because he has SPSM.

      Yes, because Six Paths Sage Mode is a form of 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      In short, the wiki mostly says things that are opposite to you. Shall I keep reading the wiki, or will you start saying your version normally?

      I think you should look to the manga/databooks for answers, not me or the wiki. I present the information the best i can. I dont believe the wiki is always accurate, since even the statement about Sage Transformation being a way to enter Sage Mode is not explained anywhere in the series. Debating the mods here is almost pointless, more often then not they are to stubborn to consider the fallacies/inconsistancies in their POV and/or methodology

      Okay, can you explain it the way you see it? Since I have no wiki, no manga, no data book to answer these questions.

      1) how is 6 paths senjutsu different from SPSM? Both are essentially chakra 6 paths + natural energy

      2) what role do Tailed Beast for 6 paths senjutsu / SPSM play? Madara talks about 6 paths senjutsu Naruto and we (readers) are clearly shown the back of Naruto, where there are 9 magatamas and the sign Rinne. In a conversation with Hagoromo, this sign also appears when he mentions that he shared the chakra of Ten-tails. In the last sign only appears after the Ten-tails are sealed. We're clearly told that the Tailed Beast/Ten-tails chakra is linked to 6 paths senjutsu.

      3) wiki says the SPSM user can use 6 paths senjutsu. From SPSM, 6 paths senjutsu appears. You wrote me that it is possible to have 6 paths senjutsu without SPSM

      upd: @Squinty97

      LegionZero and I (with his help) concluded that it's the same technique.

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    • How did you conclude it was the same technique if TSBs were shown not to have that effect until Obito applied it to the TSBs?

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    • Squinty97 wrote: How did you conclude it was the same technique if TSBs were shown not to have that effect until Obito applied it to the TSBs?

      That's what Tobirama said. The ball has nothing like the Dust Release.

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    • ...What?

      Tobiramam mentioned he was using nullification now, which is why Minato's arm didn't regenerate. But Hiruzen and Tobirama himself regenerated earlier from being obliterated by TSB. That means the nullification isn't an inherent part of TSBs.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, can you explain it the way you see it? Since I have no wiki, no manga, no data book to answer these questions.

      They dont say it out right, you just have to look at the patterns and compare statement/feats/showings

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) how is 6 paths senjutsu different from SPSM? Both are essentially chakra 6 paths + natural energy

      One is a mode. One isnt.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) what role do Tailed Beast for 6 paths senjutsu / SPSM play? Madara talks about 6 paths senjutsu Naruto and we (readers) are clearly shown the back of Naruto, where there are 9 magatamas and the sign Rinne. In a conversation with Hagoromo, this sign also appears when he mentions that he shared the chakra of Ten-tails. In the last sign only appears after the Ten-tails are sealed. We're clearly told that the Tailed Beast/Ten-tails chakra is linked to 6 paths senjutsu.

      The juubi is a massive source of 6 Paths chakra and nature energy.

      For Naruto, the Tailed Beasts provide him the cloak and their individual chakra and abilities. They can also gather nature energy, or at least Kurama can

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) wiki says the SPSM user can use 6 paths senjutsu. From SPSM, 6 paths senjutsu appears. You wrote me that it is possible to have 6 paths senjutsu without SPSM

      Yes it is. It is what Madara, Obito, and Hagoromo use

      I dont understand why it is so hard to understand that SPSM is not the only form of 6 Paths Senjutsu

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    • What exactly is in question here? (I skimmed, this thread is huge) As Squinty said, the TSBs do not by default defuse the effects of all Ninjutsu, since Hiruzen came back while Minato did not. It's when Yin-Yang Style is added that the added anti-magic effect is there.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      That's what Tobirama said. The ball has nothing like the Dust Release.

      Yes it does. If you look at Obito fighting Hiruzen, Hiruzen notes that TSBs by default (i.e. before adding Yin-Yang) blow apart the molecules of anything they touch. He directly compares it to Dust Release, as a better version of it. But this de-molecular effect is not the same affect as Tobirama talks about later. One acts on the physical level (blows apart the molecules making up the object), the other is basically the Naruto equivalent of anti-magic (causes the effects of the Ninjutsu to fail by breaking apart it's basic magical components).

      Also note that the Dust Release type effect did not just happen on Ninjutsu. Hiruzen used the Shuriken Shadow Clone jutsu, and the default TSBs still erased the original, real shuriken he threw at Obito too.

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    • MindForged wrote:

      Yes it does. If you look at Obito fighting Hiruzen, Hiruzen notes that TSBs by default (i.e. before adding Yin-Yang) blow apart the molecules of anything they touch. He directly compares it to Dust Release, as a better version of it. But this de-molecular effect is not the same affect as Tobirama talks about later. One acts on the physical level (blows apart the molecules making up the object), the other is basically the Naruto equivalent of anti-magic (causes the effects of the Ninjutsu to fail by breaking apart it's basic magical components).

      If the TSB could atomize things like Dust release then there is no reason Obito/Madara didnt just atomize everything that came their way, Senjutsu or not

      MindForged wrote:

      Also note that the Dust Release type effect did not just happen on Ninjutsu. Hiruzen used the Shuriken Shadow Clone jutsu, and the default TSBs still erased the original, real shuriken he threw at Obito too.

      And which of those 20ish Shuriken was the real one and where is the panel that shows all of them destroyed

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      If the TSB could atomize things like Dust release then there is no reason Obito/Madara didnt just atomize everything that came their way, Senjutsu or not

      If you're just going to ignore what was said in the series, that's fine. But that's not convincing, lol. Hiruzen directly says it has the same kind of effect as Dust Release, and we see that against all the shuriken. Also, they did do that. The reason it didn't win was because they either ended up against teleporters or else against Senjutsu users, who appeared to be immune to this effect.

      MindForged wrote:

      And which of those 20ish Shuriken was the real one and where is the panel that shows all of them destroyed

      It's literally the first one thrown, at the front of the pack. All the shuriken are shown destroyed as he passes by. And given Obito was barely conscious at that point, you'd be making an impossible argument that he just happened to avoid trying to atomize the first shuriken.

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    • We see Obito in the middle of 5 or 6 split Shuriken. Unless we see everyone of them destrpyed it is just an assumption that they were all destroyed, and that the real one was among those destroyed.

      His level of conscuousness is not stat relevent considering he was using the TSB generally the same as h did when he was fully conscious.

      It wouldnt be the first time a jutsu analysis was incomplete or somewhat incorrect

      If TSB truly could atamize things, Obito would have won and the series would have ended

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Okay, can you explain it the way you see it? Since I have no wiki, no manga, no data book to answer these questions.

      They dont say it out right, you just have to look at the patterns and compare statement/feats/showings

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) how is 6 paths senjutsu different from SPSM? Both are essentially chakra 6 paths + natural energy

      One is a mode. One isnt.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) what role do Tailed Beast for 6 paths senjutsu / SPSM play? Madara talks about 6 paths senjutsu Naruto and we (readers) are clearly shown the back of Naruto, where there are 9 magatamas and the sign Rinne. In a conversation with Hagoromo, this sign also appears when he mentions that he shared the chakra of Ten-tails. In the last sign only appears after the Ten-tails are sealed. We're clearly told that the Tailed Beast/Ten-tails chakra is linked to 6 paths senjutsu.

      The juubi is a massive source of 6 Paths chakra and nature energy.

      For Naruto, the Tailed Beasts provide him the cloak and their individual chakra and abilities. They can also gather nature energy, or at least Kurama can

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      3) wiki says the SPSM user can use 6 paths senjutsu. From SPSM, 6 paths senjutsu appears. You wrote me that it is possible to have 6 paths senjutsu without SPSM

      Yes it is. It is what Madara, Obito, and Hagoromo use

      I dont understand why it is so hard to understand that SPSM is not the only form of 6 Paths Senjutsu

      1) yes, SPSM is a mode. How do I reach SPSM and 6 paths senjutsu status? In what way is it different?

      2) The sign for Tailed Beast is shown on Naruto's back as part of 6 paths senjutsu, according to Madara. It's not some additional enhancement, it's part of his 6 paths senjutsu.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) yes, SPSM is a mode. How do I reach SPSM and 6 paths senjutsu status? In what way is it different?

      It different in the same way that Juugo's senjutsu is a different than Naruto's Sage Mode.

      Or how the sound 5 and Sasuke had Senjutsu through the curse mark but not Sage Mode

      Or how Gamakichi used Senjutsu but not Sage Mode

      They are different, not sure what kind of answer you are looking for.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) The sign for Tailed Beast is shown on Naruto's back as part of 6 paths senjutsu, according to Madara. It's not some additional enhancement, it's part of his 6 paths senjutsu.

      Yet Naruto uses 6 Paths Sage Mode without the marks on his back later on in Boruto.

      Madara conflated the mark of the Bijuu and Six Paths Senjutsu because he didnt know how to achieve SPS without them

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      1) yes, SPSM is a mode. How do I reach SPSM and 6 paths senjutsu status? In what way is it different?

      It different in the same way that Juugo's senjutsu is a different than Naruto's Sage Mode.

      Or how the sound 5 and Sasuke had Senjutsu through the curse mark but not Sage Mode

      Or how Gamakichi used Senjutsu but not Sage Mode

      They are different, not sure what kind of answer you are looking for.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      2) The sign for Tailed Beast is shown on Naruto's back as part of 6 paths senjutsu, according to Madara. It's not some additional enhancement, it's part of his 6 paths senjutsu.

      Yet Naruto uses 6 Paths Sage Mode without the marks on his back later on in Boruto.

      Madara conflated the mark of the Bijuu and Six Paths Senjutsu because he didnt know how to achieve SPS without them

      How is it different? What makes it different?

      The wiki says that sage transformation is just one way to enter sage mode. That is, in fact, Jugo also uses sage mode. I don't know why you come here when Naruto and Jugo have a difference in getting sage mode.

      And I never found any information in the manga that 6 paths senjutsu should somehow differ from SPSM.

      SPSM allows you to use 6 paths senjutsu, as SM allows you to use senjutsu. Modes are like the basis from which you can use something else. It is like Sharingan and Izanagi, with Sharingan you can use Izanagi. Your statements sound like you can use Izanagi without Sharingan - use 6 paths senjutsu without SPSM / another mode which is 6 paths senjutsu. That's... silly...

      Then why did the sign appear in the war?

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is it different? What makes it different?

      Beats me. They just are. No specifics are ever given to explain why they are different or what it does different. Just that Naruto has it and Madara/Obito/Hagoromo dont

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The wiki says that sage transformation is just one way to enter sage mode. That is, in fact, Jugo also uses sage mode. I don't know why you come here when Naruto and Jugo have a difference in getting sage mode.

      Good on the wiki, but that is not stated/shown in the manga/databook.

      The admins just put it there because the databook says it makes Juugo a sage. Not that he enters/activates Sage Mode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And I never found any information in the manga that 6 paths senjutsu should somehow differ from SPSM.

      The fact Naruto has SPSM and Madara/Obito/Hagoromo dont. As listed by the databook.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      SPSM allows you to use 6 paths senjutsu, as SM allows you to use senjutsu. Modes are like the basis from which you can use something else. It is like Sharingan and Izanagi, with Sharingan you can use Izanagi. Your statements sound like you can use Izanagi without Sharingan - use 6 paths senjutsu without SPSM / another mode which is 6 paths senjutsu. That's... silly...

      Wrong analogy. Its like the relationship between dojutsu and Sharingan. All Sharingan are dojutsu but not all dojutsu are Sharingan

      All SPSM is SPS, but not all SPS is SPSM

      SPS is a general term for Six Paths Chakra+Senjutsu. 6 Paths Sage Mode is a specific "form" of SPS

      Kinda like how Senjutsu can refer to Hashirama's Sage Mode, Naruto's Sage Mode, Jiraiya's Sage Mode, Juugo's Sage Transformation, Orochimaru's Curse Mark transformations

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      How is it different? What makes it different?

      Beats me. They just are. No specifics are ever given to explain why they are different or what it does different. Just that Naruto has it and Madara/Obito/Hagoromo dont

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      The wiki says that sage transformation is just one way to enter sage mode. That is, in fact, Jugo also uses sage mode. I don't know why you come here when Naruto and Jugo have a difference in getting sage mode.

      Good on the wiki, but that is not stated/shown in the manga/databook.

      The admins just put it there because the databook says it makes Juugo a sage. Not that he enters/activates Sage Mode.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      And I never found any information in the manga that 6 paths senjutsu should somehow differ from SPSM.

      The fact Naruto has SPSM and Madara/Obito/Hagoromo dont. As listed by the databook.

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      SPSM allows you to use 6 paths senjutsu, as SM allows you to use senjutsu. Modes are like the basis from which you can use something else. It is like Sharingan and Izanagi, with Sharingan you can use Izanagi. Your statements sound like you can use Izanagi without Sharingan - use 6 paths senjutsu without SPSM / another mode which is 6 paths senjutsu. That's... silly...

      Wrong analogy. Its like the relationship between dojutsu and Sharingan. All Sharingan are dojutsu but not all dojutsu are Sharingan

      All SPSM is SPS, but not all SPS is SPSM

      SPS is a general term for Six Paths Chakra+Senjutsu. 6 Paths Sage Mode is a specific "form" of SPS

      Kinda like how Senjutsu can refer to Hashirama's Sage Mode, Naruto's Sage Mode, Jiraiya's Sage Mode, Juugo's Sage Transformation, Orochimaru's Curse Mark transformations

      Are you saying that we just don't know the Jinchuriki Ten-tails and Hagoromo modes? If so, I agree.

      Since for me your statements sounded like SPSM Naruto and 6 paths senjutsu are not the same, but different techniques / methods, when for Naruto it's all the same.

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    • ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Are you saying that we just don't know the Jinchuriki Ten-tails and Hagoromo modes? If so, I agree.

      Pretty much.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      ReweR 1331 wrote:

      Are you saying that we just don't know the Jinchuriki Ten-tails and Hagoromo modes? If so, I agree.

      Pretty much.

      What?

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    • Its kind of a way to say "yes"

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    • Squinty97 wrote: ...What?

      Tobirama mentioned he was using nullification now, which is why Minato's arm didn't regenerate. But Hiruzen and Tobirama himself regenerated earlier from being obliterated by TSB. That means the nullification isn't an inherent part of TSBs.

      @Rewer you never responded to this message here

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    • A FANDOM user
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