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  • To clarify here is an example of Hebi Sasuke's true abilities. He fought both Deidara and Itachi on the same day, and because of Ororchimaru's White snake that he absorbed, he has both a healing factor and an extra Chakra supply. To compare, after losing the curse mark, Sasuke needed to be healed by Obito, but Hebi Sasuke was never shown to depend on Karin until after. Hebi Sasuke also possesses the Curse Mark allowing him to fly. The Curse Mark is essentially a basis for Sage Mode and he can sense Amateratsu building in Mangekyo Sasuske's eyes, and he has Orochimaru and the 8 headed Snake to fend off and destroy the Susano'o. He can have Orochimaru give him back the curse mark swell. The curse mark also increases exponentially Sasuke's speed to a whole new level. And there hasn't been any proof that a Mangekyo Sharingan that isn't based on Genjutsu actually improves it. Hebi Sasuke used Genjutsu on Sai, Deidara, a civilian, Jugo and Itachi all without powered by the curse mark. The Curse Mark also increases and amplifies change in chakra form, change in Chakra Nature, Chakra Control, and Hebi Sasuke has an extra reserve and healing prowess. And most importantly, he is more analytical than Mangekyo Sasuke. In case you want a scaling. Hebi Sasuke > Deidara + Tobi > Gaara + Shukaku > Gaara > Mangekyo Sasuke.

    Who Takes The L?
     
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    The poll was created at 05:43 on July 30, 2020, and so far 16 people voted.
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    • Hebi Sasuke had to be more analytical because he didn't have MS techs to spam. He had CS2 and Oro techs at his disposal. I think in the end he would win as MS Sasuke only had Susanoo and Amaterasu which are things Hebi Sasuke already knows about because of fighting Sick Itachi. MS Sasuke is def weaker than CS2 Sasuke.

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    • @CursemarkSenjutsu

      Interesting thought. A few things though, Hebi Sasuke didn't depend on Karin due to him not being seriously injured at that time. Also, I don't think it was ever stated that the curse mark gives the user the same sensory ability or degree of enhancement as sage mode does. Orochimaru being a third party to this battle is quite confusing. Is Orochimaru allowed to pop-out anytime?

      I do recall that Sasuke used his MS on a cloud shinobi to obtain information. And Suigetsu commented how more convenient his eyes have become. So, that would be an indication of genjutsu improvement. Curse mark hasn't been shown to increase the range of Chidori sharp spear, which has remained consistent at 5 meters or healing powers.

      As for an actual fight. MS Sasuke would probably use chidori and then switch to spamming Amaterasu and Susanoo. Hebi Sasuke would probably counter with Chidori and fire style. Though, I don't see Hebi Sasuke outrunning Amaterasu or breaking through Susanoo.

      Also, chakra usage for Sasuke has been inconsistent imo. Hebi Sasuke used 7 offensive jutsus against Itachi ( 1*genjutsu, 2*chidori/chidori stream, 3*fire style, 1*Orochimaru substitution) plus CS2 activation, before running out of chakra. MS Sasuke at the five kage arc used 10 offensive jutsu (3*Chidori/chidori stream, 1*genjutsu, 3*Susanoo, 3*Amaterasu) and could still continue.

      So I don't think this is an instance of Hebi Sasuke outlasting MS Sasuke.

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    • CursemarkSenjutsu
      CursemarkSenjutsu removed this reply because:
      I didn't understand how to quote and reply properly (still don't) if someone could teach me how to reply and still have the other persons words in one quote, it would be nice.
      06:32, July 31, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Ninja Of War wrote: @CursemarkSenjutsu

      Ninja Of War wrote: Interesting thought. A few things though, Hebi Sasuke didn't depend on Karin due to him not being seriously injured at that time.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: After he almost died from Deidara's final explosion, Karin just stood there. Later at a resting place, Jugo just wraps some bandages around him.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Also, I don't think it was ever stated that the curse mark gives the user the same sensory ability or degree of enhancement as sage mode does.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Well it is based off of it, and to add more, Hebi Sasuke could just use his sharing to see the flow of Chakra kneading in MS Sasuke's eyes. Ex: Obito when he awakened his sharing was able to see invisible people, aswell as read the Chakra signatures of people.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Orochimaru being a third party to this battle is quite confusing. Is Orochimaru allowed to pop-out anytime?

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Thats like asking if kcm1 Naruto can use Kurama's Chakra or if 8 Tails Naruto vs Pain counted.

      Ninja Of War wrote: I do recall that Sasuke used his MS on a cloud shinobi to obtain information. And Suigetsu commented how more convenient his eyes have become. So, that would be an indication of genjutsu improvement.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: All of the Genjutsu I've mentioned Suigetsu was not present besides from Jugo, and Sasuke was heavily weakened from Deidara's explosion.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Curse mark hasn't been shown to increase the range of Chidori sharp spear, which has remained consistent at 5 meters or healing powers.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Well it does, and he did it in base Curse mark. And Sasuke didn't try again. And if he did, it depends on How much power is put into it compared to range. Or if Sasuke was flying swell.

      Ninja Of War wrote: As for an actual fight. MS Sasuke would probably use chidori and then switch to spamming Amaterasu and Susanoo. Hebi Sasuke would probably counter with Chidori and fire style.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: MS Sasuke can't spam Amateratsu consistently, and Hebi Sasuke with partial Curse Mark (which jugo mentioned impressive) out ran Itachi's Amateratsu spam and got hit on purpose so he could use Fire style then Kirin. Skills and Tactics>> Spamming MS w nothing else.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Though, I don't see Hebi Sasuke outrunning Amaterasu or breaking through Susanoo.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Formation of Ten Thousand Snakes should easily break Susano'o without much difficulty, and Curse Mark powered Chidori Katana negs.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Also, chakra usage for Sasuke has been inconsistent imo. Hebi Sasuke used 7 offensive jutsus against Itachi ( 1*genjutsu, 2*chidori/chidori stream, 3*fire style, 1*Orochimaru substitution) plus CS2 activation, before running out of chakra. MS Sasuke at the five kage arc used 10 offensive jutsu (3*Chidori/chidori stream, 1*genjutsu, 3*Susanoo, 3*Amaterasu) and could still continue.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Mind you that the Great White snake resides with Sasuke along with every one of Orochimaru's Justus and is healing at every moment of the fight. He went from barely standing with Deidara to reverse summoning + Chidori Nagashi almost instantly oh and FOUGHT ITACHI AND DEIDARA ON THE SAME DAY. Thats pretty inconsistent as Mangekyo Sasuke was healed and all of his Chakra returned when Zetsu gave him, and Karin healed him heavily 2x, and Hebi Sasuke used 3 Genjutsus on Itachi (one at the Cave, another on Itachi once more) an additional chidroi while running into Naruto's clones, A Chidori Katana + Chidori spikes all within the same time range. MS Sasuke's fight with Bee just shows you who's really stronger. And its not that he could still continue, he was buffed healed and would have died to Mizukage w/o Zetsu appearing.

      Ninja Of War wrote: So I don't think this is an instance of Hebi Sasuke outlasting MS Sasuke.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Well I have proof (btw I hope I didn't seem mean 😅)

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    • All wrong.

      Itachi was just acting, don't count that fight. Sasuke was cured before facing itachi. Susano + black flames control are much better (a big upgrade) than CM. Keep in mind the Four Sound beaten by 12 years old konoha ninja's. CM is not a sage mode, it is a weaker surrogate able to absorb natural energy in a rough way, and it is also risky. You see Sasuke being healed multiple times with MS because he faces enemies way stronger than Deidara. We talk about Danzo who has the experience of Hiruzen, some Kage's and Bee.

      Gaara lost against Deidara because he consumed chakras and concentration to defend the whole village from C3. Kishimoto made that scene very clear, and Deidara explain that, you can't say you didn't understand.

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    • I think Mangekyō Sasuke barely edges out a win here. Amaterasu and Susano’o are extremely OP and I don’t see Hebi Sasuke being able to dodge them forever. Keep in mind that Itachi was barely trying at all in their fight and moreover was sick and had low chakra reserves. This means that MS Sasuke can use Amaterasu at least 5 times before running out of chakra. Not to mention the Susano’o, which Hebi Sasuke doesn’t have a chance at breaking through.

      While the CM 2 gives a considerable amp, everyone here is ignoring the chakra drain it causes. Sasuke hasn’t been able to maintain it for long (running out of chakra while fighting Deidara and Itachi with days in between). MS Sasuke went on a Kage gauntlet: fighting A for a considerable amount of time, managing to keep up with Gaara and then Mei then getting beaten by Ōnoki. He then soon after fought Danzō in a lengthy battle and won. He was even able to fend of Sakura and Kakashi and have a brief clash with Naruto.

      This goes to show that Hebi Sasuke can’t just wait for MS Sasuke to run out of chakra especially if he’s fighting in CM 2. While Hebi Sasuke is smart, MS Sasuke isn’t stupid. He was able to figure out Izanagi relatively quickly.

      Also Orochimaru only escaped when Hebi Sasuke lost control over his curse mark. This only happened due to his desperation to beat Itachi. Oro doesn’t only escape if Hebi Sasuke runs out of chakra (as seen against Deidara). While Hebi Sasuke can summon Manda, I think Amaterasu can deal with him (as well as the eight branches snake) relatively easily. We don’t even know if Manda will even listen to Hebi Sasuke. Putting him under genjutsu will cost Hebi Sasuke chakra, something he can’t afford to lose.

      Basically it comes down to who runs out of chakra first.

      Sorry for the long read, just putting what I think out there 😅

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    • CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      After he almost died from Deidara's final explosion, Karin just stood there. Later at a resting place, Jugo just wraps some bandages around him.

      As I said, he wasn't seriously injured, due to Manda shielding him. Only when he was seriously injured did Karin intervene.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      Well it is based off of it, and to add more, Hebi Sasuke could just use his sharing to see the flow of Chakra kneading in MS Sasuke's eyes. Ex: Obito when he awakened his sharing was able to see invisible people, aswell as read the Chakra signatures of people.

      Based off what? We haven't seen that occur, that's just an assumption. Wait, you claimed that CS2 granted the Sharingan more enhancement, and the example you cite is Obito using a normal Sharingan? Huh? MS can do more than a normal Sharingan can.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      Thats like asking if kcm1 Naruto can use Kurama's Chakra or if 8 Tails Naruto vs Pain counted.

      No. Orochimaru popping out of Sasuke in Itachi vs Sasuke was only due to Sasuke being extremely low on chakra. You casually mentioned in the DP that Hebi Sasuke "... has Orochimaru and the 8 headed Snake to fend off and destroy the Susano'o." So my question is valid, as your fight seems to assume that Orochimaru is on Hebi Sasuke's team and can just pop out to fight Susanoo whenever. Which is quite unbalanced and doesn't make sense.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      All of the Genjutsu I've mentioned Suigetsu was not present besides from Jugo, and Sasuke was heavily weakened from Deidara's explosion.

      Ok, mine does. And shows how MS genjutsu is better than normal Sharingan genjutsu.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      Well it does, and he did it in base Curse mark. And Sasuke didn't try again. And if he did, it depends on How much power is put into it compared to range. Or if Sasuke was flying swell.

      No that's not true. During Sasuke vs Deidara, CS2 Hebi Sasuke had to stand on top of his sword and get Deidara in the 5 meter range with his Fuma Shuriken to slice the wing off Deidara's C2 dragon. There was no increase in range. And there was no indication of an increase in healing power from the curse seal.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      CursemarkSenjutsu: MS Sasuke can't spam Amateratsu consistently, and Hebi Sasuke with partial Curse Mark (which jugo mentioned impressive) out ran Itachi's Amateratsu spam and got hit on purpose so he could use Fire style then Kirin. Skills and Tactics>> Spamming MS w nothing else.

      MS Sasuke did spam Amaterasu during the five kage summit. Got hit on purpose is debatable. But Hebi Sasuke definitely couldn't outrun Amaterasu. If Hebi Sasuke got hit with Fire Release: Fire ball jutsu during Itachi vs Sasuke, then Amaterasu is a sure hit.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      Formation of Ten Thousand Snakes should easily break Susano'o without much difficulty, and Curse Mark powered Chidori Katana negs.

      Again, based on what? That's a pretty big assumption you're making. Especially when Orochimaru's snake sword couldn't pierce Naruto's 4 tail cloak.

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      Mind you that the Great White snake resides with Sasuke along with every one of Orochimaru's Justus and is healing at every moment of the fight. He went from barely standing with Deidara to reverse summoning + Chidori Nagashi almost instantly oh and FOUGHT ITACHI AND DEIDARA ON THE SAME DAY. Thats pretty inconsistent as Mangekyo Sasuke was healed and all of his Chakra returned when Zetsu gave him, and Karin healed him heavily 2x, and Hebi Sasuke used 3 Genjutsus on Itachi (one at the Cave, another on Itachi once more) an additional chidroi while running into Naruto's clones, A Chidori Katana + Chidori spikes all within the same time range. MS Sasuke's fight with Bee just shows you who's really stronger. And its not that he could still continue, he was buffed healed and would have died to Mizukage w/o Zetsu appearing.

      Wait what? We all know that the power of the white snake allows Sasuke to recover chakra and from injury exponentially faster. And Sasuke's body was short-circuited by his own chidori, for the sake of neutralizing C4. He wasn't out of chakra at the end of the fight with Deidara. And he had a lot of time to recover.

      MS Sasuke wasn't healed by Zetsu, and it's an assumption to say that "all of Sasuke's chakra was returned to him". Again, what's that based off? Besides, that doesn't exclude my breakdown that was before Zetsu even appeared. Karin healed Sasuke with the mystical palm technique after Tobi put both of them in Kamui's Dimension, and as I recall that doesn't give people chakra. Because he was injured by the Mizukage's boil release. What does MS Sasuke's fight with Bee have to do with this?

      CursemarkSenjutsu wrote:

      Well I have proof (btw I hope I didn't seem mean 😅)

      Well, your proof doesn't account for a lot of things though. Namely, comparing Karin intervention while disregarding severity of injury. Taking not only the offensive jutsu Hebi Sasuke used against Itachi (There was actually 3* chidori/chidori stream, not 2), but also all the supplementary jutsu, (4*CS2 transformations, body flicker, etc). Or the difference in relative chakra cost, i.e. Amaterasu usage chakra cost =/= Chidori usage chakra cost.

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    • Jira89 wrote: All wrong.

      Jira89 wrote:Itachi was just acting, don't count that fight. Sasuke was cured before facing itachi. Susano + black flames control are much better (a big upgrade) than CM.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Sasuke was healed by himself, only Jugo barely helped by wrapping Bandages around his body. And this isn't just curse mark, this is Orochimaru a + Eight Headed Snake + White Snake all inside giving him additional benefits, and Amateratsu and Kagutschi take a greater toll on the body than curse mark. And I'm just taking all of the features from his fight with Itachi.

      Jira89 wrote: Keep in mind the Four Sound beaten by 12 years old konoha ninja's.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: The sound four brought them all into an end until the full health Sand Siblings saved them and Choji took his pills which almost killed him. And They all have different degrees of power. If you want accuracy use Kimmimaru who was stated to have the Strongest curse mark (Now after Sasuke) and was able to bring both Full health Lee and and Gaara down while being Sickened by a terminal illness on his last day.

      Jira89 wrote: CM is not a sage mode, it is a weaker surrogate able to absorb natural energy in a rough way, and it is also risky.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: It is stated that Orochimaru developed the. Curse Mark from Jugo's clan whom use and naturally absorb Snake Sage power into their bodies.

      Jira89 wrote: You see Sasuke being healed multiple times with MS because he faces enemies way stronger than Deidara. We talk about Danzo who has the experience of Hiruzen, some Kage's and Bee.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Thats not the only factor, and the largest one being that MS drains Chakra quickly. Come on, Sasuke use Amateratsu once on Bee and Kagutschi 2x before exhausted.

      Jira89 wrote: Gaara lost against Deidara because he consumed chakras and concentration to defend the whole village from C3. Kishimoto made that scene very clear, and Deidara explain that, you can't say you didn't understand.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: And Deidara has to hold back to capture Shukaku for the extraction. And for Sasuke, Deidara had bloodlust for Uchihas + Tobi's aid + he didn't have to hold back + he used his suicidal just with a RADIUS of 10 km,

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    • Sidd77 wrote: Sidd77 wrote: I think Mangekyō Sasuke barely edges out a win here. Amaterasu and Susano’o are extremely OP and I don’t see Hebi Sasuke being able to dodge them forever.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Well the Susano arrow at this time shouldn't be much of a problem, but Amateratsu is a large strain on the eyes, and drains Chakra, with the only benefit of 3 abilities (Amateratsu, Kagutshi, Susano'o) Hebi Sasuke can run longer than what MS Sasuke can put out. Reminder that he used Amateratsu only once on Killer Bee.

      Sidd77 wrote: Keep in mind that Itachi was barely trying at all in their fight and moreover was sick and had low chakra reserves. This means that MS Sasuke can use Amaterasu at least 5 times before running out of chakra. Not to mention the Susano’o, which Hebi Sasuke doesn’t have a chance at breaking through.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Itachi was trying, but he could have ended the match much earlier first 10 seconds. And Itachi use Amateratsu on Hebi Sasuke on purpose so he would use Orochimaru's substitution and drain his Chakra so he could pull out orochirmaru. So for the Amateratsu statement Itachi was trying. Also Itachi's problem isn't Chakra, in fact they are quiet large, but his problem was his stamina and his body, anoverusage of any ability would lead to a weaker body.

      Sidd77 wrote: While the CM 2 gives a considerable amp, everyone here is ignoring the chakra drain it causes. Sasuke hasn’t been able to maintain it for long (running out of chakra while fighting Deidara and Itachi with days in between).

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Jiribos Curse Mark is stated to amplify him at minimum 10x, Sasuke's Cursemark is stated to be far more powerful, and Hebi Sasuke's Chakra is far higher than you think. To achieve the true power of the curse mark, Sasuke needed to "die" first. So he had just come from death and Naruto was in 1 Tails cloak which gives him Chakra. In the end despite Naruto having a major Chakra buff, and being not only descendant but REINCARNATION of Ashura whom have naturally far stronger bodies, and Sasuke using and washing Chakra on a unmastered 3 Tomoe Sharing was still standing. And no there were not days in between at all intact more like an hour and a half difference, for proof, think about Team 10 and 7 looking for Itachi and Sasuke.

      Sidd77 wrote: MS Sasuke went on a Kage gauntlet: fighting A for a considerable amount of time, managing to keep up with Gaara and then Mei then getting beaten by Ōnoki. He then soon after fought Danzō in a lengthy battle and won. He was even able to fend of Sakura and Kakashi and have a brief clash with Naruto.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: He was healed heavily 3 times, and was assisted against the Raikage with Suigetsu and Jugo. In between each Segement, Sasuke was healed to the max. And V1 Raikage > MS Sasuke + Jugo but Hebi Sasuke> Deidara + Tobi > Edo Deidara > Full Health Onoiki > Madara Onoiki > Raikage

      Sidd77 wrote: This goes to show that Hebi Sasuke can’t just wait for MS Sasuke to run out of chakra especially if he’s fighting in CM 2. While Hebi Sasuke is smart, MS Sasuke isn’t stupid. He was able to figure out Izanagi relatively quickly.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Like I've said before, healed in between segments, and Sakura didn't fight Sasuke, not even touched, and Kakashi's encountered was more of a Sharing spar. Ill agree that he isn't dumb, but already Hebi sasuke is smarter, but even Karin was able to notice Izanagi without even being in close range, and Danzo sent a wave of false information towards her aswell.

      Sidd77 wrote: Also Orochimaru only escaped when Hebi Sasuke lost control over his curse mark. This only happened due to his desperation to beat Itachi. Oro doesn’t only escape if Hebi Sasuke runs out of chakra (as seen against Deidara). While Hebi Sasuke can summon Manda, I think Amaterasu can deal with him (as well as the eight branches snake) relatively easily. We don’t even know if Manda will even listen to Hebi Sasuke.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Hebi Sasuke lost control of Chakra 2x in the same day, so that also could be a factor. It reminds me of Naruto's Kyuubi if u consider that. And Ororchimara knew about the Amaterasu, just as others have, and yet he was going to face off Itachi, Im sure he had a plan, or just his Substitution negs any physical ninjutsu or Taijutsu, and he knows not to look at Itachi either. So I see no problem with Orochimaru defeating MS Sasuke. And you are right ab out the Orochimaru leaving his body but even then, Hebi Sasuke threw kanas at Itachi,s Susano'o, and he knows about the Amamteraatsu, to he will surely stay back. He only attacked Itachi's Susano'o as a last option, as even then dans did it and nothing happened.

      Sidd77 wrote: Putting him under genjutsu will cost Hebi Sasuke chakra, something he can’t afford to lose.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: But Sasuke also has Aoda (MS Sasuke went straight to switch his eyes to EMS after he sparred w Kakashi, so there isn't any time difference to believe he acquired Aoada while half asleep transferring his eyes.

      Basically it comes down to who runs out of chakra first Sorry for the long read, just putting what I think out there 😅

      CursemarkSenjutsu: No problem, great arguments btw 😅.

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    • You can't put in similarity Kimimaro and Sasuke. With his kekkei genkai he has a totally different way of fighting. Choji used pills because he was still inexperienced. None of the Sound Four showed above average reflexes. Even Kiba managed to face them and the punches he took from Sakon didn't even have the strength to kill or immobilize him. The blows of a real Sage Mode would insta kill any 12-year-old ninja you see in the first part of Naruto.

      Maybe you think Sasuke CM = Naruto SM, right? Well NO, his raw power is just bit superior than Naruto 1 tail.

      You keep writing nonsense and don't be objective, do you think Sasuke would have survived without Susano in those fights? A big hole in the chest as happened to Juugo against Raikage, that's what would happened to Sasuke CM.

      This is literally going against character development, like saying that Goku ssj stronger than ssj2. The answer is no.

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    • CursemarkSenjutsu: Well the Susano arrow at this time shouldn't be much of a problem, but Amateratsu is a large strain on the eyes, and drains Chakra, with the only benefit of 3 abilities (Amateratsu, Kagutshi, Susano'o) Hebi Sasuke can run longer than what MS Sasuke can put out. Reminder that he used Amateratsu only once on Killer Bee.

      All of this doesn’t matter. Hebi Sasuke couldn’t dodge Amaterasu when Itachi used it, and he wasn’t even going to kill Sasuke with it. When used with killing intent along with Kagatsuchi, CM Sasuke has no chance.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Jiribos Curse Mark is stated to amplify him at minimum 10x, Sasuke's Cursemark is stated to be far more powerful, and Hebi Sasuke's Chakra is far higher than you think. To achieve the true power of the curse mark, Sasuke needed to "die" first. So he had just come from death and Naruto was in 1 Tails cloak which gives him Chakra. In the end despite Naruto having a major Chakra buff, and being not only descendant but REINCARNATION of Ashura whom have naturally far stronger bodies, and Sasuke using and washing Chakra on a unmastered 3 Tomoe Sharing was still standing. And no there were not days in between at all intact more like an hour and a half difference, for proof, think about Team 10 and 7 looking for Itachi and Sasuke.

      That just means CM Sasuke is stronger is stronger than One Tailed Naruto. After the Rasengan-Chidori clash, he was still standing while Naruto needed to go the hospital. Sasuke didn’t ‘outlast’ Naruto, that statement itself is ridiculous he just beat him fast. There is also no proof that the near-death state drained Sasuke’s chakra.


      CursemarkSenjutsu: He was healed heavily 3 times, and was assisted against the Raikage with Suigetsu and Jugo. In between each Segement, Sasuke was healed to the max. And V1 Raikage > MS Sasuke + Jugo but Hebi Sasuke> Deidara + Tobi > Edo Deidara > Full Health Onoiki > Madara Onoiki > Raikage

      MS Sasuke clearly beat V1 A. Would’ve killed him if it wasn’t for C. I don’t understand the Jūgo but Hebi Sasuke part so I will just ignore that. Tobi rarely helps Deidara at all during their fights, only aiding with the mines. Edo Deidara will be unaffected by the mines and can just use C0 to kill Alive Deidara easily and regen after. Edo Deidara was shitting his pants when he saw Ōnoki, and also Ōnoki can easily beat Edo Deidara by using Dust Release then sealing. Ōnoki in Madara’s time is featless and therefore can’t be compared with A.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Like I've said before, healed in between segments, and Sakura didn't fight Sasuke, not even touched, and Kakashi's encountered was more of a Sharing spar. Ill agree that he isn't dumb, but already Hebi sasuke is smarter, but even Karin was able to notice Izanagi without even being in close range, and Danzo sent a wave of false information towards her aswell.

      Hebi Sasuke isn’t smarter, he’s less reckless. Sasuke didn’t lose intelligence after gaining the MS. Moreover if needs must, MS Sasuke can strategise. I didn’t mention this earlier, but. MS Sasuke has full intel on Hebi Sasuke while the opposite is not true. MS Sasuke could easily surprise his counterpart.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: Hebi Sasuke lost control of Chakra 2x in the same day, so that also could be a factor. It reminds me of Naruto's Kyuubi if u consider that. And Ororchimara knew about the Amaterasu, just as others have, and yet he was going to face off Itachi, Im sure he had a plan, or just his Substitution negs any physical ninjutsu or Taijutsu, and he knows not to look at Itachi either. So I see no problem with Orochimaru defeating MS Sasuke. And you are right ab out the Orochimaru leaving his body but even then, Hebi Sasuke threw kanas at Itachi,s Susano'o, and he knows about the Amamteraatsu, to he will surely stay back. He only attacked Itachi's Susano'o as a last option, as even then dans did it and nothing happened.

      I don’t think Hebi Sasuke will have a chance to bring out Oro in the first place. And no Hebi Sasuke had no idea about Amaterasu, only Tsukuyomi as Itachi never used it until their final battle.

      CursemarkSenjutsu: But Sasuke also has Aoda (MS Sasuke went straight to switch his eyes to EMS after he sparred w Kakashi, so there isn't any time difference to believe he acquired Aoada while half asleep transferring his eyes.

      Two things, my argument with Manda still stands for Aoda. If Hebi Sasuke has Aoda then MS should too imo.


      CursemarkSenjutsu: No problem, great arguments btw 😅.

      Thanks dude, your arguments were great too. 😀

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    • Jira89 wrote:

      You can't put in similarity Kimimaro and Sasuke. With his kekkei genkai he has a totally different way of fighting. Choji used pills because he was still inexperienced. None of the Sound Four showed above average reflexes. Even Kiba managed to face them and the punches he took from Sakon didn't even have the strength to kill or immobilize him. The blows of a real Sage Mode would insta kill any 12-year-old ninja you see in the first part of Naruto.

      Like I said, Sasuke's Curse Mark is stronger than Kimimaro's so my argument stands strong. You shouldn't have brought uptake sound four if you are just going to ignore the facts and you are not acknowledging the Sand Siblings arriving at all. And Kimmimaru still beat Lee And Gaara while being sickened. And It doesn't matter because the genin were about to die until the Sand Siblings arrived.

      Maybe you think Sasuke CM = Naruto SM, right? Well NO, his raw power is just bit superior than Naruto 1 tail.

      Ive never stated it was on the same level, and its not just "a bit superior than Naruto 1 tail" he litterally came out death, and still was able to escape before Kakashi arrived. And for your information, Orochimaru Sasuke (pre hebi, so non-enhanced CurseMark) is stated to be far superior to 3 tails Naruto at minimum.

      You keep writing nonsense and don't be objective, do you think Sasuke would have survived without Susano in those fights? A big hole in the chest as happened to Juugo against Raikage, that's what would happened to Sasuke CM.

      Are you saying that Jugo is stronger than the Sasuke? You can't even say that something like that would happen to Hebi Sasuke and Jugo wasnt himself then too. And yes I do, he's faster than the MS Sasuke and analyzes way better.

      This is literally going against character development, like saying that Goku ssj stronger than ssj2. The answer is no.

      Its not, Read what Initially said, everything I said was valid, and you are ignoring that Deidara couldn't hold back on Sasuke like Gaara and the rest of the last parts I told you last time, stop ducking, and putting yourself on a pedestal.

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    • Sidd77 wrote:

      All of this doesn’t matter. Hebi Sasuke couldn’t dodge Amaterasu when Itachi used it, and he wasn’t even going to kill Sasuke with it. When used with killing intent along with Kagatsuchi, CM Sasuke has no chance.

      Hebi Sasuke got hit on purpose so he could fall down and use his fire ball Jutsu so he could use Kirin, and Itachi was purposely trying to hit him so he could pull out Orochimaru, and MS Sasuke used Kagutschi 2x and tired out, along with the fact that at this time, he didn't or better yet couldn't shoot out Amateratsu simultaneously with Kagutschi, only when it the target he would be able to. And Hebi Sasuke dodged most of it until he was purposely hurt, and not even full CM.

      That just means CM Sasuke is stronger is stronger than One Tailed Naruto. After the Rasengan-Chidori clash, he was still standing while Naruto needed to go the hospital. Sasuke didn’t ‘outlast’ Naruto, that statement itself is ridiculous he just beat him fast. There is also no proof that the near-death state drained Sasuke’s chakra.

      Thats the point, and you are aiding my side, Naruto needed to be hospitalized despite having only buffs, and Sasuke losing Chakra by the second just to keep his CM and 3 Tomoe Sharingan activated. And I never said it drained his Chakra, I only said he came from death and wasn't even full health, nor prepared to fight Naruto.

      MS Sasuke clearly beat V1 A. Would’ve killed him if it wasn’t for C. I don’t understand the Jūgo but Hebi Sasuke part so I will just ignore that. Tobi rarely helps Deidara at all during their fights, only aiding with the mines. Edo Deidara will be unaffected by the mines and can just use C0 to kill Alive Deidara easily and regen after. Edo Deidara was shitting his pants when he saw Ōnoki, and also Ōnoki can easily beat Edo Deidara by using Dust Release then sealing. Ōnoki in Madara’s time is featless and therefore can’t be compared with A.

      What not at all. He was about to destroy MS Sasuke but Gaara saved his life, and Raikage brought MS Sasuke to the ground. He didn't care if he did lose his arm, to him family was more important. And Edo Deidara stated he couldn't use C0 because his Edo Body would force him to to regenerate. And Edo Deidara was beating Onoiki to the point that Akatsuchi (not Akatsuki) had to save him from deidara's explosion. And Deidara outsmarted Onoiki. To add to that, he wasn't scared at all, it was a clay clone, and Onoiki didn't seal him, and I haven't seen any proof of Onoiki using dust release to seal, and he would need either a Curse mark, or sealing tags to do so. My bad for the last one, when I said Madara Onoiki I meant 5 Kage vs Madera Onoiki, and Onoiki had fatigue from fighting the former Tsuchikage, and Mizukage, and a battle from the 5 kage.

      Hebi Sasuke isn’t smarter, he’s less reckless. Sasuke didn’t lose intelligence after gaining the MS. Moreover if needs must, MS Sasuke can strategise. I didn’t mention this earlier, but. MS Sasuke has full intel on Hebi Sasuke while the opposite is not true. MS Sasuke could easily surprise his counterpart.

      Look at his fight with Deidara, he didn't even intend on killing him and states he heavily underestimated him, and yet he was able to figure out everything and counter every single one of deizdara's attacks. MS Sasuke was was getting bodied by the likes of Chojuro and the Mizukage, The same 2 people whom were on par with BLACK ZETSU. To add, MS Sasuke even attempted to attack anyone, Karin, Obito, and almost killed Suigetsu and Jugo. And MS Sasuke wasn't able to stop Suigetsu from attacking Kisame, but yet Hebi Sasuke stopped a bloodlust raged CM3 Jugo and Suigetsu at once and instantly.

      I don’t think Hebi Sasuke will have a chance to bring out Oro in the first place. And no Hebi Sasuke had no idea about Amaterasu, only Tsukuyomi as Itachi never used it until their final battle.

      If MS Sasuke attempts to use Susano'o Hebi will stay back, just as he did with Itachi, who's Susano'o was actually closer to complete, and he had just seen him attack 8 headed Snake + Orochimaru and destroy him. And Sasuke possibly didn't know about Amateratsu initially, but learned from Itachi either way (despite Konkuro, Cee and cloud Jonin knowing about it but ok), and I said OROCHIMARU knew about the Amateratsu first anyways so He knew what it was, and he can spam the substitution way longer than Hebi Sasuke and longer than MS Sasuke can spam. From that gg.

      Two things, my argument with Manda still stands for Aoda. If Hebi Sasuke has Aoda then MS should too imo.

      That was my point. Hebi Sasuke wasn't restricted by Manda only.

      Thanks dude, your arguments were great too. 😀

      Same again

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    • Is Kimimaro not "Kimmimaru". Don't you understand what I'm writing? You still try to evade Susano argument. I didn't say that Juugo is stronger than Sasuke, but Sasuke's CM offers the same protection as Juugo's transformation. You have no arguments, only fanfiction because you are obsessed with Sasuke's Curse Mark form. Nostalgic.

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    • Jira89 wrote:

      Is Kimimaro not "Kimmimaru". Don't you understand what I'm writing? You still try to evade Susano argument. I didn't say that Juugo is stronger than Sasuke, but Sasuke's CM offers the same protection as Juugo's transformation. You have no arguments, only fanfiction because you are obsessed with Sasuke's Curse Mark form. Nostalgic.

      It really isn't that much of importance of the way I typed his name, especially since it has nothing to do with the argument. I didn't avoid the Susano argument, I've brought it up 2x but ill answer for you, Formation of Ten Thousand Snakes should easily neg seeing as each snake has 1 sword and the all pierce at once. Sasuke's Susano'o durability isn't as strong or long enough to hold him back. Next Orochimaru's + * Headed Snake easily negs, and if Orochimaru Geta hit himself, he can easily spam his substitution. And Ororchimaru knew of the Amateratsu, but yet he continued to attack Itachi despite being aware of it. You didn't explain what you meant at all so I could only assume you meant that Jugo was stronger. Im not obsessed with Sasuke's Curse Mark I just think that not only was losing it a downgrade, but also from Hebi to MS was aswell. And even If I did, there is no reason to mock me. And I believe this Rinnegan Sasuke > EMS Sasuke > Hebi Sasuke > MS Sasuke > Orochimaru Sasuke (prehebi). And you haven't countered any of my points, all you do is get salty mad that I actually did.
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    • A bounch of snakes offers the same protection as Susano cage? U are mad? This only works for Deidara's basic explosives, for the final explosion he had to sacrifice Manda, a unique hermit snake. Do you think in close combat Sasuke has time and space to summon thousand snakes? lol.. and they can be easily split and cut, rewatch Sasuke vs Orochimaru or Naruto vs Orochimaru. Don't be absurd.

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    • Looking at @CursemarkSenjutsu's arguments here I'm noticing three main points (correct me if I'm wrong). You're saying that, Hebi Sasuke is 'smarter' than MS Sasuke. He is as fast as V1 Raikage and Gaara's Lightweight Sand as he can dodge Amaterasu. His CM gives him a power amp that MS Sasuke can't deal with.

      First off, do you think that Hebi Sasuke would be able to beat the Raikage? The Raikage easily beat Jugo's Level 2 state, which is comparable to Sasuke's CM 2. Hebi Sasuke has no defense that can withstand the Raikage's power. The Susano'o is the literal absolute defence. If you want to say that Hebi Sasuke will just stay back and wait, then there's nothing stopping MS Sasuke from deactivating it and giving chase. You also said that Itachi's Susano'o is more complete, which is wrong. In the fight with Danzo, MS Sasuke reaches the armoured Susano'o, which is the same stage Itachi was on.

      The biggest point you're ignoring here is that MS Sasuke knows EVERYTHING about Hebi Sasuke, making him the smarter one here. Maybe Hebi Sasuke knows about Amaterasu but that's it. He has no clue about Kagatsuchi or the Susano'o. MS Sasuke also knows how to counter the eight branches technique. He doesn't even need the Totsuka Blade to kill the giant kaiju snake.

      The curse mark is good, yeah, but there's no way in hell it compares to sage mode, which MS Sasuke could fight against and probably scales to. Your arguments are merely based on hypotheticals. *Maybe* CM 2 Sasuke can dodge Amaterasu point blank with killing intent. *Maybe* he can avoid Susano'o. *Maybe* he can out think MS Sasuke. All MS Sasuke needs to do is catch Hebi Sasuke off guard with Amaterasu and gg. CM 2 Sasuke has no speed feats that are major or on the level of V1 Raikage.

      In my opinion, whoever Hebi Sasuke beat, MS Sasuke could beat, but the same doesn't apply vice-versa, proving that MS Sasuke is superior to Hebi Sasuke.

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