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Counter Shinobi Forces

I understand that this group is not explicitly defined as the 'Counter Shinobi Forces', nor has it been declared as expressly separate from Akatsuki. However, there i a very distinct difference between the function of the two groups, and 'Akatsuki' does not include any of the new undead members of the group. Even the goal of Akatsuki is different from this group, except for Madara's viewpoint. This groups actions are not catalogued in the Akatsuki page, and I do believe that they are different. I am lobbying for the existence of this page for the convenience of Naruto fans to access this information easily, without having to hunt everywhere for whom Kabuto resurrected, what they're doing, and to understand that certain Akatsuki members were not a part of this group nor its identity before their death, and in their new life are not themselves (which is cause even to list them as new characters as they are under the direct control of Kabuto). Thanks, timeel39

about the reverts of the sexy technique article

(Undo revision 433167 by Boris Baran (talk) We still don't do that kind of link here)

Why the hell not?! --Boris Baran (talk) 18:45, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Because it's not directly Naruto-related, and the wiki's designed to be mostly self-contained. Aside from the odd links to wikipedia for mythology references, link clutter is kept down. ZeroSD (talk) 18:55, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Mizukage's Hydrification

If I remember correctly the page stays the way it was before the issue arose. Which would mean he'd stay listed as a user. I still don't understand why you have this issue despite the overwhelming evidence in favour of his use.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:41, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

The issue is him having it in the first place. If someone posts unconfirmed info, we don't consider the issue to start when someone points out it's unconfirmed, that way leads to asking people to prove negatives. And the 'overwhelming evidence' seems to be just that he's from a clan that has it (but where it's not necessarily universal) and him showing a *similar* jutsu (with it's own unique properties) but not it. Since when is "they haven't shown it but may possibly have it" overwhelming evidence?
Really, I am just baffled by the stance several editors are taking on this, we normally hold to such strict standards of evidence.ZeroSD (talk) 12:51, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that user talk pages are really the place for this, but the list ShounenSuki made in the character's talk page pretty much sums it up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:41, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
And as I noted, none of those listed involve him actually transforming into liquid (and indeed, his actions indicates he likely can't), which is the entirety of what Hydrification is according to the hydrification page, and the actual possession of hydrification is still just assumption. I use the user's talk pages because you are mods and you seem to be following different standards and procedure than usual. ZeroSD (talk) 23:49, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
The tip of his finger transforms into liquid when using the Water Gun Technique. It's discreet but it's there. Using the clone made his body weak, as pointed by Ōnoki, so that makes it harder for him to turn into liquid. He's weak because of the clone, and he already had the trouble of reaching the top of the pyramid. I'm using the same though process I've always used, I'm simply taking into consideration not only what it explicitly said, but also previous information given by the manga. If we went solely by explicit sayings, Storm Release wouldn't have been listed as a kekkei genkai for months (maybe a year) after Darui first showed it until the art book came out and explicitly said it so. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:17, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
It produced water, it didn't change itself in the slightest and was still 100% finger shaped, nothing about using water gun or what was shown requires hydrification. Furthermore, he regularly acts like he's solid, dodging shuriken and never flowing out of restraints. You're conflating 'makes water from the body' with 'hydrification,' two different things, and working on conjecture. And true, while Storm release wasn't explicitly said, no-one contested that because all known alternate releases are KG. It's rather different than assuming someone has a jutsu that they haven't shown once and haven't used when it'd be useful. Provide *one* thing he does that can't be done simply with creating water and not transforming and I'll drop it. If not, then it's just speculation. ZeroSD (talk) 00:32, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
Here it's an emphasis on the Mizukage's finger. You can see discontinuity out the outline. Yes, it's subtle, but it's there. Him being a Hōzuki is just as indicative of him using the Hydrification Technique as Darui using a Storm Release is indicative of him having a kekkei genkai. And I already said that after making the clone, his trouble with becoming/making liquid is due to him being weak from making the clone in the first place. That and all other previous indications of how one can use water for ninjutsu, the Hyrification technique is the only one consistent with this. All others either use water from the environment or spit it out. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:53, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
I can see a droplet beyond the length of the actual finger. It's not subtle, it's... not there at all. There is no transformation, just liquid coming off the finger. Keep in mind we have multiple other jutsu and characters where we see an element come directly off someone's body in a similar manner even when they can't transform into it (Yamato and Wood, for example, or Sasuke with snakes). "All others either use water from the environment or spit it out." Yea, suggesting he has a jutsu that lets him create water more directly from his body. Which is not like transformation. You're conflating two different abilities, and every last one of his can be explained by that trick alone, while his failure to ever use transformation for defense or act like he has it as a defense is inconsistent with transformation. "Him being a Hōzuki is just as indicative of him using the Hydrification Technique as Darui using a Storm Release is indicative of him having a kekkei genkai." Except all alt elemental releases are KG based, and not all signature clan techniques are possessed by all members of a clan. One's a universal and the other is merely a likelyhood. ZeroSD (talk) 01:24, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
I already told you why he's weaker, I don't see you commenting on that at any point. Roshi uses Lava Release, and he doesn't have a kekkei genkai, his Lava Release stems from a tailed beast. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:33, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
"I already told you why he's weaker, I don't see you commenting on that at any point." What? No, seriously- I didn't parse that at all, what are you referring to? Nothing I mentioned takes place only after he's weakened from making the clone- when he's entrapped by Gaara early on he never flows out, he creates liquid. He always only creates liquid. Also, notably, Hydrification users become *more* jelly like and fluid when weak, as Suigetsu has shown multiple times. If you're arguing that he didn't become fluid because he's weak, you're arguing in the wrong direction. "Roshi uses Lava Release, and he doesn't have a kekkei genkai, his Lava Release stems from a tailed beast." Ok, granted. Kekkei genkai or tailed beast skill. So there was a total of two possibilities, of which Darui not being a jinchuuriki eliminated one.ZeroSD (talk) 01:44, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
So.... instead of saying he can use the hydrification technique you want to say he uses like it because he never turned his body into water but instead seemed to have water/oil come out of his pores or something?Joshbl56 (talk) 01:45, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
I want to say he has a water/oil creation technique, yes.ZeroSD (talk) 02:23, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

I already said something like this but the problem with that is that the hydrification technique seems to only work on actual people and not clones since we never have seen a clone that can't be effected by physical attacks so I'm thinking of just saying that steaming danger tyranny is something completely different from the hydrification technique. As for the mizukage being able to use hydrification, I think he can since we did see him shoot a water from his finger and it actually looked like it came out of his finger instead of just having some water around it. Joshbl56 (talk) 02:57, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

The complete size and shape of the finger was there though. It just had water going beyond too. The finger made the water (showing a water making ability) but there's no sign the finger was transformed (not showing hydrification). ZeroSD (talk) 03:14, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
Ok, i see what you mean. As far as we've seen, it takes a little bit of time for the body to become solid again so i guess his technique isn't hydrification. Since it's not then shouldn't we take him off as a user of hydrification since it's only then implied that he can use it since he is a member of the Hōzuki clan? Joshbl56 (talk) 03:33, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
Scratch my last idea, there would be tons of people mad if we took him off the hydrification technique list. Instead we should do like you said and put that he can make water. Joshbl56 (talk) 03:35, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
I think that your idea is good, I'm just trying to convince enough people of it to make the change doable ^^ ZeroSD (talk) 03:48, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure that the biggest problem with getting people to change it is that he uses that oil technique to stop gaara's sand. I think the biggest help for us is [This page]. Why? cause gaara actually hit him with his sand and he didn't turn to water/oil BUT in [This one] he was able to use his oil to crawl out of gaara's technique. Joshbl56 (talk) 04:03, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
Yea, good points. Thanks for the links :) ZeroSD (talk) 04:04, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
The biggest problems though is that if it shows up that the oil isn't hydrafication technique then that mean's it's a whole new technique (maybe a variation of the hydrafication technique) and, if he is from the hozuki clan, then what different variations of the hydrafication technique they have. Joshbl56 (talk) 04:18, September 30, 2011 (UTC)


Water Gun transforms the user's hand into water to launch a perfect finger-like bullet. And again, look at how easily he dug himself up to the top of the pyramid, that could only happen if he's been transformed into water. --NaruHina fan (talk) 05:38, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

His hand's shape doesn't transform though, water just comes off of it. And he could also dig that way by dissolving sand with oil. If he could turn into water, why didn't he proceed to at least try at the end there? ZeroSD (talk) 05:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

How do you know if he tried? His entire body was obscured by a very large sand pyramid. He didn't have nearly enough time to release enough water to get his way out before the seal took affect and stopped him cold. Skitts (talk) 06:07, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

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